Character Auction

[Dareptor]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

P2W= paying for something better and more powerful than you could get for free

You can argue about the definition of P2W. Some people might feel that getting any kind of advantage, like buying a character full geared is P2W allready, no matter if there is better gear available allready. By your definition selling T3 is just fine, or why is selling Thunderfury not a thing ? Saying that it's not P2W simply because there is better gear available isn't a valid point here. I don't have a problem with the character auctions, but I can cleary see why some people don't feel good about it.

 

[Longhorn]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

Geez, i will repeat myself for the last time. I have experienced this for 4 years and except for disappointment in a geared player who turned out to be a noob in raid/bg, it didnt make me feel like i needed to buy a character too.

This is FREE server, every free2play online game out there has some sort of a plan on how to get money from its players to make up for the fact that it is free.
This is no different and people will always b.tch about it.

Just deal with it or GTFO.


(if Twinstar realms could work this way for years, what makes you think it wont work this time?)

 

[Cyndan]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

You can argue about the definition of P2W. Some people might feel that getting any kind of advantage, like buying a character full geared is P2W allready, no matter if there is better gear available allready. By your definition selling T3 is just fine, or why is selling Thunderfury not a thing ? Saying that it's not P2W simply because there is better gear available isn't a valid point here. I don't have a problem with the character auctions, but I can cleary see why some people don't feel good about it.

So if the definition is based on how the individual views it, how can it be considered as a legitimate view? If I say it's P2W and you don't, then who's right? There's no longer an argument, because I've decided that I'm right and you're wrong, and the same goes for you.

Arguing semantics over definitions of pay to win doesn't resolve the problem. Changing the definition to fit arguments doesn't resolve the problem. The broad consensus of what pay to win means is obtaining items/gear at a faster rate by purchasing them than you could originally if you played for free.

Someone has to level the character. Someone has to gear it. YOU may be getting it faster than if you had to level it, but SOMEONE ELSE had to play it. Therefore the time placed into the character is the exact same as everyone else who will never use the service. Do you have an advantage? You can argue that you do, but you know what? While you were waiting for that perfect character to come along to buy, you have been wasting your precious time by NOT playing that character, so therefore you have also put time into that character(whether you want to accept this as true or not, it is true).

The system is not inherently pay to win. To continue to argue that it is only shows that people are incapable of base logical thinking (actual logic, as in mathematical logic) or that they want to highlight things in a bad light in order to cast down the server before it ever has a chance.

I have bolded and underlined the most important portions of my post, it is not to make callouts at people saying they wouldn't be able to understand it otherwise. I only wanted to make sure I was 100% clear in all aspects.

 

[Mentat]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

For F.CKS SAKE!

P2W= paying for something better and more powerful than you could get for free
Kronos = paying for vanity stuff that is otherwise not obtainable ingame + chance to get a geared char.

Sure, you can skin the whole leveling and gearing phase if you are lucky to find a decent char on char auction, but that is not pay2win. You DONT get any better gear that others would be able to obtain and and if you SUCKED in WoW before, you will continue in being bad.

Let me confirm with you here:
A new user sets up an account on Kronos, pays 10.6 Euros or 11.57 USD (Current B/O price for a character on Auction as of this post (https://www.twinstar.cz/manager/Auction/Normal-List.aspx) for a fresh level 60 character (for sake of this example: equipped with just your basic gear one has upon hitting level 60). Has skipped the entire leveling process, has ignored the time one would have to regularly put into a character to reach this point in the game. Essentially... Paying 10.6 Euros or 11.57 USD for a level 60 boost.

... Is not Pay-To-Win? BECAUSE another person can have a level 60 account with tier 1 gear (More powerful) that they got for "Free".

Going to go ahead and say MANY people will disagree with that. If I am wrong, please correct me.

 

[Dareptor]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

So if the definition is based on how the individual views it, how can it be considered as a legitimate view? If I say it's P2W and you don't, then who's right? There's no longer an argument, because I've decided that I'm right and you're wrong, and the same goes for you.

Arguing semantics over definitions of pay to win doesn't resolve the problem. Changing the definition to fit arguments doesn't resolve the problem. The broad consensus of what pay to win means is obtaining items/gear at a faster rate by purchasing them than you could originally if you played for free.

Someone has to level the character. Someone has to gear it. YOU may be getting it faster than if you had to level it, but SOMEONE ELSE had to play it. Therefore the time placed into the character is the exact same as everyone else who will never use the service. Do you have an advantage? You can argue that you do, but you know what? While you were waiting for that perfect character to come along to buy, you have been wasting your precious time by NOT playing that character, so therefore you have also put time into that character(whether you want to accept this as true or not, it is true).

The system is not inherently pay to win. To continue to argue that it is only shows that people are incapable of base logical thinking (actual logic, as in mathematical logic) or that they want to highlight things in a bad light in order to cast down the server before it ever has a chance.

I have bolded and underlined the most important portions of my post, it is not to make callouts at people saying they wouldn't be able to understand it otherwise. I only wanted to make sure I was 100% clear in all aspects.

I feel like the whole term P2W doesn't really apply here. Your logic only works on these two conditions: Player A who bought the account was waiting for the whole time while Player B played for him and that Player A is capable of reaching the objectives Player B reached. This isn't allways the case - most of the time Player A isn't able to raid Naxxramas or he discovered the whole project 1 year after it released. The whole point isn't really about the fact that's P2W or isn't but that someone can BUY an advantage over someone else. It doesn't matter in this case if someone had to play it or not (Of course it does make the whole thing less worse - but for player A and everyone else there is almost no difference). The point people make is that you can BUY a better Character than YOU have earned / played what ever. Of course the player woun't be as skilled, but in this case it doesn't matter. It is only about the fact that you can BUY an advantage with real currency, even if the rules are very strict and limited by the fact that someone has to sell it in the first place, thus making it P2W for some people (There is no official defintion of P2W as far as I know so discussing it is pointless). I don't mind this feature, but you guys have to accept that there are people with other opinions and that the truth might be somewere in between yours and theirs.

 

[Mentat]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

So if the definition is based on how the individual views it, how can it be considered as a legitimate view? If I say it's P2W and you don't, then who's right? There's no longer an argument, because I've decided that I'm right and you're wrong, and the same goes for you.

Arguing semantics over definitions of pay to win doesn't resolve the problem. Changing the definition to fit arguments doesn't resolve the problem. The broad consensus of what pay to win means is obtaining items/gear at a faster rate by purchasing them than you could originally if you played for free.

Someone has to level the character. Someone has to gear it. YOU may be getting it faster than if you had to level it, but SOMEONE ELSE had to play it. Therefore the time placed into the character is the exact same as everyone else who will never use the service. Do you have an advantage? You can argue that you do, but you know what? While you were waiting for that perfect character to come along to buy, you have been wasting your precious time by NOT playing that character, so therefore you have also put time into that character(whether you want to accept this as true or not, it is true).

The system is not inherently pay to win. To continue to argue that it is only shows that people are incapable of base logical thinking (actual logic, as in mathematical logic) or that they want to highlight things in a bad light in order to cast down the server before it ever has a chance.

I have bolded and underlined the most important portions of my post, it is not to make callouts at people saying they wouldn't be able to understand it otherwise. I only wanted to make sure I was 100% clear in all aspects.

I agree with many of your points but I think again it delves into semantics and relies on the fact that a person is:

"...waiting for that perfect character to come along to buy, you have been wasting your precious time by NOT playing that character, so therefore you have also put time into that character(whether you want to accept this as true or not, it is true)."

It's assuming someone IS waiting for a character to come along. What about the guy 3 months from now that discovers Kronos and wants a level 60. He then just paid 11.57 USD to forego the time others would normally have to spend getting a character to 60.

 

[orkchop]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

People are here to raid, do dungeons and high end PVP. A great leveling experience is a huge plus, and most don't give a shit about how blizzlike farming is. Who cares if the mobs spawn faster, you still have to kill them with the same level of effort.

 

[Mentat]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

...but you guys have to accept that there are people with other opinions and that the truth might be somewere in between yours and theirs.

^

My point with this whole thread is that P2W is such as dirty term in gaming that even having a very minimalist implementation of it WILL turn off many potential players. The benefits (small amount of server upkeep) do not outweigh the costs (loss of a large portion of population)

 

[SgtFreakshow]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

My point with this whole thread is that P2W is such as dirty term in gaming that even having a very minimalist implementation of it WILL turn off many potential players. The benefits (small amount of server upkeep) do not outweigh the costs (loss of a large portion of population)

The great thing about P2W in Kronos' case is that it's become massively overused, whenever anyone dislikes any feature in any game they call it P2W, this devaluates the word, so within the next 6-12 months this won't be a problem anymore as people will stop reading any post that contains 'P2W' anyway, nobody knows what it means and people use it for EVERYTHING.

 

[hizOdge]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

The great thing about P2W in Kronos' case is that it's become massively overused, whenever anyone dislikes any feature in any game they call it P2W, this devaluates the word, so within the next 6-12 months this won't be a problem anymore as people will stop reading any post that contains 'P2W' anyway, nobody knows what it means and people use it for EVERYTHING.

Pretty much how league of legends ran the word "toxic" into the ground. After being repeated enough times it simply becomes meaningless.

 

[SgtFreakshow]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

Or how countless different online forums have run 'fallacy' and 'strawman' into the ground.

 

[Skeleth]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

On retail you could sell your account through ebay etc. Here you have character auction. Someone will pay money to get lvl 60 char and skip all the fun.I dont know how you, but i look forward to those things like low lvl dungeons/BGs, world pvp and i am certainly not alone. :biggrin:

 

[Gilthresa]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

I hate leveling passionately, its one of the reasons I've put leveling my priest on Nost on hold until I can try out Kronos. Were it not for the friends you make in the leveling process and the stigma attached to it, I would wait to see if someone put a dwarf priest up for auction and buy it honestly.

 

[orkchop]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

On retail you could sell your account through ebay etc. Here you have character auction. Someone will pay money to get lvl 60 char and skip all the fun.I dont know how you, but i look forward to those things like low lvl dungeons/BGs, world pvp and i am certainly not alone. :biggrin:

Was also against terms of service and would get the account banned if it were uncovered. I still did it though. lol

 

[Cyndan]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

I agree with many of your points but I think again it delves into semantics and relies on the fact that a person is:

"...waiting for that perfect character to come along to buy, you have been wasting your precious time by NOT playing that character, so therefore you have also put time into that character(whether you want to accept this as true or not, it is true)."

It's assuming someone IS waiting for a character to come along. What about the guy 3 months from now that discovers Kronos and wants a level 60. He then just paid 11.57 USD to forego the time others would normally have to spend getting a character to 60.

It's the same concept, you're just taking my words literally. Just because he's not sitting at his computer waiting doesn't mean he's not "wasting" his time. If he only just discovered Kronos and bought it immediately, all the time that it would have taken him to level has already occurred. It's a difficult concept for many to grasp, but just because he doesn't know about the server, doesn't mean his time isn't being used while that character is being leveled. The time is still there, it's just he doesn't know about it.

Let's say someone is playing the server and they want an herbalist but don't want to level one so they buy one on the auction. Whether or not they knowingly made the decision all those weeks/months ago to not level a character and level the profession is irrelevant. While they were playing the game, they could have been making the second character, but they didn't want to, so they bought it. They still put time into the game or their real life pursuits while they could have been making the second character. This equals time that is required for the new character to be leveled, whether they're doing it personally or not. Therefore, they are using their time as well while that character is being leveled, whether they know it or not.

Just because you're not personally doing something if you decide something else is more worthwhile, does not mean that your time is still not being used in some manner elsewhere.

You can swap out any of the terms for the arguments and it will still hold true, as long as your new terms fit the logical order.

 

[Daishi001]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

For me as a player there is no difference what-so-ever because of the character auctionhouse.
Why would I care who the person controlling a character is, if I have no way of knowing in the first place.
The problem of people leveling up chars to sell them non stop and thus flooding the server with 60s doesn't even exist, because you get no money from selling a character.
Then people try to build an argument saying "well you could sell twinstar points for cash externally" - yeah, and with that you just destroyed any argument against the character auctionhouse. Externally anyone can sell anything.

 

[Zzuk]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

Who the hell even gives a fck about all those people being to stupid to read? Do you really bother that much?
If the launch will be good and the community is acceptable people who arent completely braindead believing everything without a proof will come on its own.

Is it our job to convince people who have the only intention to talk bad about kronos? Let the haters hate and do your thing. No one got big because he give a damn about what other people say.

 

[Wind]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

I assume people are not so young in the Vanilla middle and are able to make their own opinion, they will certainly try Kronos in order to see it with their own eyes and not those of someone else. Word of mouth is a huge factor and if this server worth it then people will come little by little or massievly if it's way better than expected compared to the actual "competitor(s)".

Kronos and Nostalrius are different, they're not selling the same things nor targetting the exact same community.

Wait & See, launch is soon, the answer too.

 

[Mentat]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

It's the same concept, you're just taking my words literally. Just because he's not sitting at his computer waiting doesn't mean he's not "wasting" his time. If he only just discovered Kronos and bought it immediately, all the time that it would have taken him to level has already occurred. It's a difficult concept for many to grasp, but just because he doesn't know about the server, doesn't mean his time isn't being used while that character is being leveled. The time is still there, it's just he doesn't know about it.

Let's say someone is playing the server and they want an herbalist but don't want to level one so they buy one on the auction. Whether or not they knowingly made the decision all those weeks/months ago to not level a character and level the profession is irrelevant. While they were playing the game, they could have been making the second character, but they didn't want to, so they bought it. They still put time into the game or their real life pursuits while they could have been making the second character. This equals time that is required for the new character to be leveled, whether they're doing it personally or not. Therefore, they are using their time as well while that character is being leveled, whether they know it or not.

Humor me:
Bob: "Oh hey! Battlefield 4! Just discovered this! Cool!
*Makes New BF4 Account*
*Starts playing*
"Oh I'm rank 1 and I have access to only this AK-47 without any barrels, grips, magazine extensions... But what's this? I can pay 5 bucks for John's character that has every sniper class weapon unlocked!?
*Pays 5 bucks for John's character and unlocks the entirety of the Sniper Class weapons*
[Bob's new Character has killed Joe with the Barrett 50. Cal Sniper Rifle with Thermal Imaging Scope]

Reaction A:
Joe: Ah good shot man!

Reaction B:
Joe: Great, another P2W kid who used money to get an advantage over me

Which do you think is more likely?



You're saying that since Bob was off dicking around in Skyrim while John was unlocking the sniper class, means that when Bob purchased John's character it is NOT P2W? Because John had to put time into it?

Just because you're not personally doing something if you decide something else is more worthwhile, does not mean that your time is still not being used in some manner elsewhere.

I mean... yes you are correct and this seems to be getting on somer borderline philosophy shenanigans that nobody wants to get into...

Your time IS being used in some manner elsewhere... Bob then NEGATES the time he could have been unlocking the sniper class by paying $5.

While Joe has to put time into both unlocking the sniper class AND dicking around in Skyrim. Bob has simply put time into dicking around in Skyrim while negating the time unlocking the sniper class with $5

Do you see how people can consider this P2W?

 

[Daishi001]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

Do you see how people can consider this P2W?

No, because this is what Joe gets to see:

[John has killed Joe with the Barrett 50. Cal Sniper Rifle with Thermal Imaging Scope]

Joe does not know who's controlling the character that killed him, nor is it relevant.
The end.

 

[Gilthresa]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

Humor me:
Bob: "Oh hey! Battlefield 4! Just discovered this! Cool!
*Makes New BF4 Account*
*Starts playing*
"Oh I'm rank 1 and I have access to only this AK-47 without any barrels, grips, magazine extensions... But what's this? I can pay 5 bucks for John's character that has every sniper class weapon unlocked!?
*Pays 5 bucks for John's character and unlocks the entirety of the Sniper Class weapons*
[Bob's new Character has killed Joe with the Barrett 50. Cal Sniper Rifle with Thermal Imaging Scope]

Reaction A:
Joe: Ah good shot man!

Reaction B:
Joe: Great, another P2W kid who used money to get an advantage over me

Which do you think is more likely?

Neither.

Actual Reaction:
Joe: FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT SNIPER PUSSIES HIDING OUT WITH THEIR FUCKING BARRETS!1!!1!!1!!
*Joe then proceeds to try to outflank Bob because Bob is either bad at the game or not, outcome from here out is determined by player ability and knowledge of their respective classes*

 

[Skosh]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

I'll take another stab at this, because it does seem to be the single most disruptive topic about Kronos that outsiders as well as insiders have a problem coming to grips with.

Let's pretend for a moment that the Twinstar staff were out to turn the character auction system into a method for them to obtain cash by creating brand new characters and gearing them without any effort done - in other words, the levels and gear were just assigned out of thin air. The character is then up up for auction, and off it goes. No one leveled the character, no one did the dungeon running, etc.

Would other players notice that something fishy is going on? Well, the answer to that question would be a matter of how old the server is and how populated it is. If the server was 3 months old and a new 60 with full pre raid Blues was put up for sale, experienced players would take a look at it and say "who is this guy? I never grouped with him, saw him in battlegrounds, etc. What guild was he in? How many people even got that drop from X instance?"

The risk of exposure would be a reality. So it then becomes a matter of server age, player awareness, and how advanced / geared the character is in running down the percentages of a fraud being detected.

Okay, so all of that is academic and common sense. Would the chance of exposure and permanent damage done to the Twinstar reputation be worth that single sale? I think the most reasonable answer to that would be "hell no".

In my heart, I don't think the character auction will be run in any other manner than how Twinstar's staff has described it. I honestly believe that if money became a severe issue with them in terms of keeping the server running, they'd consider alternatives, perhaps involving the character auction service, sure, and be up front with players with what direction they would need to take.

Reputation and word of mouth advertisement has a money value that's absurdly important, and I just don't see pros risking damage to it.

 

[szsoulzek]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

Should have locked this thread long ago.

 

[Skosh]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

Should have locked this thread long ago.

Agreed. The topic is game related and the General forum is the right place for it, but the constructive usefulness that it serves is going to expire quickly.

 

[Aieris]

Re: Kronos has a Perception Proble

To this char AH topic, i can only say, what i have already sayed elsewhere.

Goal of the character auction is not profit, but security. If players trade in this controled enviroment insead of black market, it reduces significantly number of scamed players. It also allowed twinstar to disable deleting characters above level 20, so if you get scamed, then yes, you may loose your gear/items, but your character with all skills and quests will remain. And gearing up character is much better than leveling the new one. And the character AH is the only way to get rid of the unwanted character above level 20.

Note that Twinstar does NOT return anything lost to scammers. Account security is only players affair.