Discussion about changing MC Raidtuning

[nixomatic]

Hey man why are you such a downer?

Thin community? Do you think everyone who comes here has an opinion and creates a forum account? Most people just want to play. And have you seen the 4k players that play on the other twinstar realms? Don't you think some of those will want to try out a fresh vanilla server? More people are learning of Kronos every day and hype will increase a lot when there is a release date.

Bad advertisement? Kronos is well represented on social media and getting more attention than competitors. Do you want advertisements in newspapers and on TV maybe? Best advertisement is still word of mouth, if you want to help get busy.

The smallest of servers have raiding guilds, it's about organising. If you have an average of 100 population online this means there are about 1000 active players on the server. That's plenty of people to organise raids with.

And some people in this topic need to calm down and stop getting personal, this is just a discussion thread. Have a little faith in the staff that they will do the right thing.

And heck if the bosses had a little more hp or did a little more dmg compared to 2004 you wouldn't even notice.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[jorim]

Then enlighten me I'm here to learn. Just saying "you are wrong" doesn't help me understand why I might be saying retarded things.

I just find it hard to believe that someone who registered here 10 days ago can really make a judgement about a 7 year old community. You can't blame me for being sceptical can you?

And about advertising, you were the one who believes Kronos staff should spend resources on spamming feenix servers, I think most people here would disagree that is the good way to go. It is not because the advertising is ethical that it is bad.

 

[Cpstabber]

Don't min-max cookie cutter your raids, and allow people to roll what spec they want. This will help with adding a challenge, but make the guild/community stronger with a wider acceptance of this.

This will also allow gear that usually is very min. upgrades that get replaced as soon as their tier piece drops, to be given to a hybrid player that will use that gear for a LONG time. - till AQ 20/40 which Blizz implemented a lot of stuff for Hybrid classes to help justify the spec but lack of the gear from MC and BWL.

 

[Grimnarash]

Much bullshit, such wow. You all think you are some demigod pro players. But in reality on every server 90% of the population are newbies in this expansion, and the chances any of you will get in a pro guild is 1 to 1000.
If you really think you will all one shot everything in MC everytime without a single wipe, you are severly mistaken.

 

[Szabinger]

Much bullshit, such wow. You all think you are some demigod pro players. But in reality on every server 90% of the population are newbies in this expansion, and the chances any of you will get in a pro guild is 1 to 1000.
If you really think you will all one shot everything in MC everytime without a single wipe, you are severly mistaken.

Then indeed, it will be an authentic vanilla experience, with people who can't get out of the fire on Magmadar. :smile:

 

[Grimnarash]

Then indeed, it will be an authentic vanilla experience, with people who can't get out of the fire on Magmadar. :smile:

Thats my point exactly. People think about it too much, without a real need for it. They think everyone will be some insane pros one shotting everything with a blink of an eye. And thats not what going to happen, nor here or any other server ive tried on 1.12.1

 

[Rerun]

Much bullshit, such wow. You all think you are some demigod pro players. But in reality on every server 90% of the population are newbies in this expansion, and the chances any of you will get in a pro guild is 1 to 1000.
If you really think you will all one shot everything in MC everytime without a single wipe, you are severly mistaken.

This so much. Im sure people will be amazed at how raids are still gonna suck and they'll be like: OMGZ ITS A 10 YR OLD RAID SO EASY Y U CANT LISTEN?!

Anyway, I try to refrain from - as I like to still call it - theorycrafting, and wait for the release and see what happens then.

 

[Lharts]

It is just frustrating to watch how people run their mouth about the raids of a server they have never played on.
Our guild cleared MC and had proper gear and even then we still wiped on imp. Packs if the pull was fucked up.

You guys don't have any idea how a fixed aggro mechanic changes a raid experience.

 

[Testosterown]

expansion

jep.

 

[Hagson]

Anyway, I try to refrain from - as I like to still call it - theorycrafting, and wait for the release and see what happens then.

"I have never played on a vanilla server before, therefore noone else has, ever, and has no experience from such a server, therefore it will be new and a challenge."

No.

It is just frustrating to watch how people run their mouth about the raids of a server they have never played on.
Our guild cleared MC and had proper gear and even then we still wiped on imp. Packs if the pull was fucked up.

You guys don't have any idea how a fixed aggro mechanic changes a raid experience.

MC doesnt (shouldnt) change too much from server to server.
And just because you're bad (read: wipe at imp packs) doesn't mean others are. Don't adjust for the lowest denominator.

 

[CuRS3DSiLeNcE]

@Hagson:
MC is the first raid available. It shouldn't be so frkn hard that only the best players actually manage to take Ragnaros down. Because then there is no content for the "noobs" and they stop playing and there you go, you lost 3/4 of the players.
And I don't know on which server you played, but there are still a lot of "noobs" out there that can't play as perfect as you might play, even though the vanilla players of today are clearly much more better than they used to be back then.

As you said: "Don't adjust for the lowest denominator."

Don't adjust for the highest either.

 

[Qiyn]

You all think you are some demigod pro players. But in reality on every server 90% of the population are newbies in this expansion, and the chances any of you will get in a pro guild is 1 to 1000.
If you really think you will all one shot everything in MC everytime without a single wipe, you are severly mistaken.

This so much. Im sure people will be amazed at how raids are still gonna suck and they'll be like: OMGZ ITS A 10 YR OLD RAID SO EASY Y U CANT LISTEN?!

Anyway, I try to refrain from - as I like to still call it - theorycrafting, and wait for the release and see what happens then.

Thats my point exactly. People think about it too much, without a real need for it. They think everyone will be some insane pros one shotting everything with a blink of an eye. And thats not what going to happen, nor here or any other server ive tried on 1.12.1

It is just frustrating to watch how people run their mouth about the raids of a server they have never played on.
Our guild cleared MC and had proper gear and even then we still wiped on imp. Packs if the pull was fucked up.

You guys don't have any idea how a fixed aggro mechanic changes a raid experience.

Much bullshit, such wow.

Let me speak from my experience. I had never played a single day of vanilla WoW on retail. I raid led a casual guild (casual in the sense that no raid experience was necessary, any spec was taken, level 55s were taken, still not a full 40 man raid, etc...) on ED. ED purposely buffed the bosses (at least health wise). If you total up the number of attempts my guild had spent on downing the bosses in Molten Core, it was less than 30. Not 30 for each boss. Thirty total to down each boss for the first time in MC. This number was significantly less than most hardcore guilds spent on each boss in MC, back on retail.

Now to the posters i quoted, out of sheer ignorance, you expect that a similar guild, in a similar raid, on a similar server will have a different experience (more challenging one)? If the leaders of Kronos follow the same bullshit logic that you adhere to, of course i worry for this server. And those with a functioning brain should, too.

 

[krutopatkin]

Thats my point exactly. People think about it too much, without a real need for it. They think everyone will be some insane pros one shotting everything with a blink of an eye. And thats not what going to happen, nor here or any other server ive tried on 1.12.1

haha what I have yet to wipe on magmadar in 4 1/2 years of private server vanilla and I have raided with some people who I wouldn't trust to breathe without assistance.

 

[Hagson]

@Hagson:
MC is the first raid available. It shouldn't be so frkn hard that only the best players actually manage to take Ragnaros down. Because then there is no content for the "noobs" and they stop playing and there you go, you lost 3/4 of the players.
And I don't know on which server you played, but there are still a lot of "noobs" out there that can't play as perfect as you might play, even though the vanilla players of today are clearly much more better than they used to be back then.

As you said: "Don't adjust for the lowest denominator."

Don't adjust for the highest either.

I'm not saying it should be impossible or even very challenging. I'm just asking for it to be at least a little more than a cakewalk.

 

[Cyndan]

I think people may also be thinking it will be too easy as well because of their experience on other private servers. Almost all (if not all) of the other Vanilla private servers have had every single raid available from launch. ZG itself is an amazing place to farm gear for entrance into MC, however ZG is not going to be available until after BWL is released, which won't be released until after MC has been cleared. Essentially the only thing we're going to be walking into MC with is the base gear from the level 55-60 dungeons. I'm not sure how all of this is going to pan out, especially with Silithus (I know the War Effort and everything is coming later but I don't know if Silithus is going to available at launch), but I think everyone should relax for a little while at least because it's going to take some time to even get into MC.

We're going to have to level up first, we're going to have to gear up, and we're going to have to organize 40 people to do what's necessary to down bosses in MC. And Kronos is apparently far better scripted than any other private server will have been, so using experiences from other private servers serves absolutely no purpose in the argument.

Let's get to MC before we start freaking out about raidtuning or even arguing that it's necessary. I'm not sure how many testers there are but I know most of the people in this thread have not set foot into the new Kronos, so none of them have any idea what they're talking about when it comes to THIS server.

 

[Qiyn]

[...]but I think everyone should relax for a little while at least because it's going to take some time to even get into MC.

Yes, it will take time to get into MC. The Kronos leaders care a lot about replicating the true vanilla leveling experience. If only they cared about the true vanilla raiding experience, then this server will be golden.

And Kronos is apparently far better scripted than any other private server will have been, so using experiences from other private servers serves absolutely no purpose in the argument.

Can you please list some evidence for this. I have only played on ED, and from what i understand, their MC and BWL scripts were good. If anything, the relatively few bugs in MC only made the fights harder. For example, Magmadar fearing raiders through walls, into inevitable death and a 2 hour corpse walk from Southshore. Still only took my casual guild 6 or 7 attempts to down him.

Why should my experience in a harder, but still a cakewalk, of an instance on a different private server be invalid? Why are you right and i'm wrong?

I have never been to Zimbabwe before. I am assuming you have never been to Zimbabwe, either. But i am sure we can agree that if we were to drop watermelon from a height of 10 ft, it will land on the ground in Zimbabwe roughly 4/5 of a second later. My experiences on land with similar gravity tells me this. My experiences on a server with a similar basis tells me that raiding in MC will be a cakewalk.

 

[jorim]

I raid led a casual guild (casual in the sense that no raid experience was necessary, any spec was taken, level 55s were taken, still not a full 40 man raid, etc...) on ED. ED purposely buffed the bosses (at least health wise). If you total up the number of attempts my guild had spent on downing the bosses in Molten Core, it was less than 30. Not 30 for each boss. Thirty total to down each boss for the first time in MC. This number was significantly less than most hardcore guilds spent on each boss in MC, back on retail.

Well I'm glad you mentioned it was on a private server. ED has patch 1.12 gear revamps and talents that were not available in patch 1.0 in retail. On that patch 10 years ago people didn't fully understand the mechanics of Molten Core and their classes and talents and gear were worse. The key in 40 man raiding is having everyone knowing what to do, which has become slightly easier after 10 years.

Silithus (I know the War Effort and everything is coming later but I don't know if Silithus is going to available at launch).

None of the Silithus gear will be available before AQ.



Either way the discussion is derailing into whether you think MC is hard or piss easy. I'm not really seeing any suggestions anymore on how people would make MC harder? Because without suggestions the whole discussion is pointless. So does buffing dmg and hp really increase difficulty when people understand the mechanics?

 

[Qiyn]

Jorim, i was using my personal experience on ED to justify my claims that MC on Kronos will 100% be piss easy. These claims were then used to justify my argument that MC will need to be raidtuned to return to a retail-style raiding experience.

At no point in my reply did i intend to argue that MC was meant to be easy. I apologize if it came out this way. Of course Blizzard intended Molten Core to be a challenging raid. There is evidence i supplied for this in one of my other posts on a similar thread.

 

[Cyndan]

Why should my experience in a harder, but still a cakewalk, of an instance on a different private server be invalid? Why are you right and i'm wrong?

Saying I'm right and you're wrong is the incorrect way to decipher my post. The point I'm making is that we don't know what the boss fights are yet. Using experience from another server (which may have different mechanics) is in no way assisting the discussion. If we get in there and the fights are simple enough that casual guilds are beating them very quickly, that would be a time to discuss raidtuning. We don't yet know the difficulty here and I think people are getting off track saying that it already needs to be fixed. No one knows if it needs to be fixed yet.

And it also lends to the discussion people were walking in with AQ gear I am sure in many of the raids (not necessarily your own) which clearly would make the fights much simpler. We will not have that gear for MC this time around. You wanted Vanilla, you're pretty much getting as close as you can already.

Bottom line is: Fight the bosses. If they're too easy (or too hard), discuss raidtuning. If they're right where you want them to be, there's no point to beat this issue any longer.

 

[Qiyn]

Saying I'm right and you're wrong is the incorrect way to decipher my post.

Actually, i think i deciphered your post the correct way. You are making an argument that my experience on ED is invalid in the discussion of MC raidtuning. I am making the argument for the exact opposite.

The following is my evidence to support my argument.
- ED started out with MC/Ony only, and then released Blackwing Lair a short while after Ragnaros was killed, with unrealized plans to release Ahn'Qiraj and Naxxramas in a similar manner. Kronos wishes to do the same (but perhaps, realizing its plans to release all patched raids).
- ED has a 1x experience/drop rate server. Kronos wishes to have the same rates.
- ED refused to add/change creature abilities in the least. They only added health to all raid bosses by roughly 10-15% as an attempt to better reflect retail vanilla raiding experience. Kronos is similar in the lack of customization of bosses, however, as it stands, they are inclining not to change boss health, as well.
- Boss mechanics on ED were similar to retail, during the time of patch 1.12. While bugs did exist, the vast majority of them were fixed before the vast majority of guilds raided MC. Private servers aren't without flaws, but it is safe to assume that Kronos will also replicate boss mechanics with as few bugs as possible.
- All PCs on ED are at the 1.12 patch. This means all their abilities, gear, and talents reflect patch 1.12 of retail WoW. All PCs on Kronos will be on the same exact patch.

This was my evidence to support my argument. An argument is nothing without its evidence (this is me saying that your argument is completely worthless, atm).

 

[nimeralos]

ED started out with MC/Ony only

By the way - have your "casual" guild beaten MC before ZG or after? If after, your personal-experience argument becomes weaker. Excuse me if you've already answered this question somewhere.

 

[Qiyn]

Definitely before ZG was released (by at least a few months). I believe we killed Ragnaros the around the time Dire Maul was released on ED (maybe a couple of weeks before).

So, actually, that is evidence you can use to support your argument Cyndan. ED did not have Dire Maul upon release, while Kronos will. Maybe Kronos MC will not be similar to the cakewalk that was MC on ED? It will be FAR easier.

 

[thatdcdewd]

I have only played on ED, and from what i understand, their MC and BWL scripts were good. If anything, the relatively few bugs in MC only made the fights harder.

THIS is why ALL your arguments are invalid.

I too have played on Emerald Dream, amongst others. Apparently no one has ever told you the sad truth. ED has the worst scripting ever, you should never ever compare anything to ED because it was the furthest away possible from blizzlike 1.12 or whatever scripting. Take it from a guy who played retail vanilla from the beta stage until the official release of patch 2.0.1. (btw I have raided on literally every single vanilla private server currently available every content that is available)
I'm not bashing ED here, just stating facts that bothered me a lot while playing there.
/OFF
NONE of the low level dungeons were scripted when I left the server about 7 months after its release (about 2 weeks after BWL release, just after clearing bwl, late may of '13). That's just one thing.
I started there 1-2 months after ED release. About 40-50% of the quests were actually working, so leveling was sooo much fun, yet I didn't leave the server because I didn't know any better.
When I got to gathering gear, it was piss easy to get preraid-BiS, since as I mage I could blink through doors, snare/slow bosses, and 3man farm pretty much anything (even UBRS). Do you really think ED bugs actually made stuff harder there? But that's not even about raiding, wait for it.
/ON
The raid encounter bugs, oh yes. We had stuff like getting feared through the walls, falling through the texture after charge/blinks but those are "minor" bugs, not related to boss scripting, Rather stuff like, in MC you could pull the adds at humanoid bosses separately, kill them, then kill the boss. That really made things harder, right.
In BWL Broodlord had no threat reduction ability scripted... Chromaggus could be hit through the wall, thus avoiding his breaths, making it another tank-n-spank fight whereas it should've been the point where every guild makes or breaks (at least it was on retail).
Razorgore wasn't fixed for quite some time, he kept stomping people in p2, pretty much reseting agro every time. Now that was hardcore. Yet it was no challenge for people with brains/gear.
Do you still think ED raid scripts were good? Obviously you don't have anything to compare to, but then why do you think you know anything about (even 1.12) MC/BWL scripts?

 

[nimeralos]

in MC you could pull the adds at humanoid bosses separately, kill them, then kill the boss.

Maybe Quin and his guild haven't used that (SOFCKINGSHITTY oh God hate it) bug-exploit..? In case if he haven't, you better post anything related to ED MC-itself scripts & bugs.

Personally I am not against/for ~anything, I trust Kronos team. But 1)My noobish opinion means nothing actually 2)I'd like to have all tuning... hidden a bit, because I'm quite sure that many people are more suspicious than I am, thus (any) tuning may be bad for the server population.

Well, Qiyn, we can now only wait for that "interesting ideas" about MC tuning to be fully announced. I think that they won't follow "full 1.12.1 first, more hardcore maybe later" as they thought, it really doesn't make much sense. So... something to be announced As usual.

 

[Hagson]

The point I'm making is that we don't know what the boss fights are yet.

But we do know how they are intending to make the bossfights. They even posted the source code for one of their bossfight scripts. You're acting as if this is a new game and noone has fought these bosses before. We have though, we know what the scripts are like, we know how the bosses behave and we know that without altering them it will be piss easy.

If we get in there and the fights are simple enough that casual guilds are beating them very quickly, that would be a time to discuss raidtuning.

At that point it's too late. First you release content, then you nerf if necesary. It's way worse to buff older content than it is to nerg it. The reasoning for this has been discussed previously.

We don't yet know the difficulty here and I think people are getting off track saying that it already needs to be fixed. No one knows if it needs to be fixed yet.

See above. Unless Kronos make drastic changes to how the bosses work we do know the difficulty and what it will be like.

We will not have that gear [AQ] for MC this time around. You wanted Vanilla, you're pretty much getting as close as you can already.

Except DiM is getting released at the same time as MC. A lot of the gear from there (and a lot of the gear from 5-mans) is a lot better than MC gear and far, far, more than enough to clear MC without any problems.

Bottom line is: Fight the bosses. If they're too easy (or too hard), discuss raidtuning. If they're right where you want them to be, there's no point to beat this issue any longer.

See above, don't buff after the fact.



I truly don't understand how anyone can make the argument that "We don't know how the bosses will be like, wait until release to see". These bosses are so well documented it's insane, there's been other severs that have gotten it right to 90% and not learning from those is beyond stupid.