Thanks for saying it. I was (wrongly) trying to be nice about it, but apparently this is what was needed.
/highfive
Discussion about changing MC Raidtuning
- Thread starter Testosterown
- Start date
Thanks for saying it. I was (wrongly) trying to be nice about it, but apparently this is what was needed.
/highfive
I did make a mistake. Their Blackwing Lair scripts weren't great. When i was leading my guild through that raid, we encountered numerous bugs that frustrated and hindered progress. Like Razorgore the Untamed not despawning his adds, or becoming invulnerable to mind control after the 29th egg was destroyed (which would render him unkillable). Vaelastrasz would attack while neutral, without giving his Essence of the Red buff (which would render him unnkillable). Or he would just disappear until you soft reset him! Suppression traps would not function correctly making the suppression room almost impassible. Never saw melee attack Chromaggus through the wall on ED (at least in my guild). Threat was working on Broodlord Lashlayer, because i remember my threat being reduced significantly. Was it reduced by 50%? Honestly, i don't remember. But otherwise, yes, you are right, their BWL scripts were garbage.
But, for Molten Core, Nimeralos is pretty much correct. ED Magmadar has three differences from Kronos Magmadar. He feared more frequently, feared players through the wall, and flame imps would randomly aggro players. My casual guild took 7-8 attempts to get him down. We were casual in the way that only one priest was dwarf in many of our kills. A small few of our kills, we did not have a dwarf priest.
Never knew of a flamewaker boss that could be pulled separately from his adds. But i did know of ED Gehennas, who had a bugged curse. It would reduce the healing output and healing received (or maybe just the healing output).
There was a four mobs after Gehennas that were pulled together. I believe this was a bug on ED, as it was fixed a week or two after. But Garr was nearly bugless. I never noticed him randomly exploding adds, but this is perhaps because we killed adds faster than he does? His adds never did a dance around him. But the markings (a patch 1.11 feature?) pretty much nullified the difficulty in assigning warlocks and tanks to his adds. Downed on second or third attempt.
Ragnaros would ignore fire resistance for his knockback. Requiring two tanks almost a must. I say almost, because i solo tanked Ragnaros twice. When he was enabled on ED, he would stand still for three minutes after a wipe (or was it your first wipe). Embarrassingly, our guild wiped to him even on our only time abusing this exploit. But for bugless attempts, he was the hardest for our guild, as it took 9 bugless attempts to kill him.
Baron was bugged in that he would walk slower than on retail. This just made it more frustrating waiting for him to pat all the way around. Several times we would wipe because we would forget Baron Geddon even existed, and just pull trash or Shazzrah himself! Shazzrah's magic buff registered as a debuff. Magic damage was pretty much null during that fight. Still took us only 4-5 attempts.
Golemagg the Incinerator was fine, outside of two issues. Every now and then (sometime after they released BWL), you could pull him without his adds. We used this exploit as many times as we could, as we had him on farm by then. His second issue was that you were required to kill the doggie adds (prior to BWL release). We would always kill the doggie adds after Golemagg was downed, making the fight a tiny bit harder!
Sulfuron Harbinger's adds could be kited to the beginning of the instance (don't believe this was on retail). We never did this (until after he was on farm), and my guild hated me for this decision. Still only took us three attempts.
Our first kill on Majordomo Executus was unwillingly a bugged kill. I remember he never would shield anyone until he was on farm for us. This was an unavoidable bug. We killed him on our second shot with this bug.
So, there you have it. Two bugs that made the instance easier (one of which we did not use on our kill). The rest made it harder. The only real thing that hindered our progress was the weekend DDOSes and server lag. We would lose a lot of loot, get stuck on frozen bosses/characters, have to soft-reset instances all the time, or even cancel raiding altogether. Despite the plague of weekend DDOS attacks, increased boss health, and bugs that increased the challenge, ED MC was still a cakewalk.
If this is the only raid for months on Kronos, and i am sure that BWL will be a cakewalk as well, why aren't they super challenging? If i would raid lead another casual guild on Kronos, why would i be entitled to finishing BWL and MC after only a few attempts per boss? I do not care for challenging leveling (always hated leveling), especially if i am not rewarded with challenging raiding afterwards.
In my wall of text, i seemingly forgot to address this snide remark.
Just because i did not play vanilla does not mean i know nothing i vanilla. I know strats on most of the boss fights. I learned this from googling many different sites that have strats, and from my friend who used some of the funkiest strats on his way to killing Kel'thuzad.
I know of what the patch notes say. This is public knowledge. For example, i know of the old talent trees and the old stats of items. I know that tier 2 was released along with tier 1. I know that tier 2 and tier 1 was buffed prior to BWL's release. Imagine going to Vael and being one of the few guilds nearly decked out in pieces of buffed tier 2. Of course i can see how Vael was killed in the first week (but a guildbreaker for other guilds).
I know of Blizzard's original design of classes. Just because you had a healing spec did not mean Blizzard intended you heal in raids. Blizzard tried hard to increase all spec's raid viability. Hence why all gear up through AQ40 had stats/set bonuses that buffed all three specs. It was not until Naxxramas when you saw them give up (temporarily) on this hope.
And i know that Kronos MC will be piss easy if left in the 1.12 state. See, i know a lot of things about vanilla =).
But, for Molten Core, Nimeralos is pretty much correct. ED Magmadar has three differences from Kronos Magmadar. He feared more frequently, feared players through the wall, and flame imps would randomly aggro players. My casual guild took 7-8 attempts to get him down. We were casual in the way that only one priest was dwarf in many of our kills. A small few of our kills, we did not have a dwarf priest.
Never knew of a flamewaker boss that could be pulled separately from his adds. But i did know of ED Gehennas, who had a bugged curse. It would reduce the healing output and healing received (or maybe just the healing output).
There was a four mobs after Gehennas that were pulled together. I believe this was a bug on ED, as it was fixed a week or two after. But Garr was nearly bugless. I never noticed him randomly exploding adds, but this is perhaps because we killed adds faster than he does? His adds never did a dance around him. But the markings (a patch 1.11 feature?) pretty much nullified the difficulty in assigning warlocks and tanks to his adds. Downed on second or third attempt.
Ragnaros would ignore fire resistance for his knockback. Requiring two tanks almost a must. I say almost, because i solo tanked Ragnaros twice. When he was enabled on ED, he would stand still for three minutes after a wipe (or was it your first wipe). Embarrassingly, our guild wiped to him even on our only time abusing this exploit. But for bugless attempts, he was the hardest for our guild, as it took 9 bugless attempts to kill him.
Baron was bugged in that he would walk slower than on retail. This just made it more frustrating waiting for him to pat all the way around. Several times we would wipe because we would forget Baron Geddon even existed, and just pull trash or Shazzrah himself! Shazzrah's magic buff registered as a debuff. Magic damage was pretty much null during that fight. Still took us only 4-5 attempts.
Golemagg the Incinerator was fine, outside of two issues. Every now and then (sometime after they released BWL), you could pull him without his adds. We used this exploit as many times as we could, as we had him on farm by then. His second issue was that you were required to kill the doggie adds (prior to BWL release). We would always kill the doggie adds after Golemagg was downed, making the fight a tiny bit harder!
Sulfuron Harbinger's adds could be kited to the beginning of the instance (don't believe this was on retail). We never did this (until after he was on farm), and my guild hated me for this decision. Still only took us three attempts.
Our first kill on Majordomo Executus was unwillingly a bugged kill. I remember he never would shield anyone until he was on farm for us. This was an unavoidable bug. We killed him on our second shot with this bug.
So, there you have it. Two bugs that made the instance easier (one of which we did not use on our kill). The rest made it harder. The only real thing that hindered our progress was the weekend DDOSes and server lag. We would lose a lot of loot, get stuck on frozen bosses/characters, have to soft-reset instances all the time, or even cancel raiding altogether. Despite the plague of weekend DDOS attacks, increased boss health, and bugs that increased the challenge, ED MC was still a cakewalk.
If this is the only raid for months on Kronos, and i am sure that BWL will be a cakewalk as well, why aren't they super challenging? If i would raid lead another casual guild on Kronos, why would i be entitled to finishing BWL and MC after only a few attempts per boss? I do not care for challenging leveling (always hated leveling), especially if i am not rewarded with challenging raiding afterwards.
In my wall of text, i seemingly forgot to address this snide remark.
Just because i did not play vanilla does not mean i know nothing i vanilla. I know strats on most of the boss fights. I learned this from googling many different sites that have strats, and from my friend who used some of the funkiest strats on his way to killing Kel'thuzad.
I know of what the patch notes say. This is public knowledge. For example, i know of the old talent trees and the old stats of items. I know that tier 2 was released along with tier 1. I know that tier 2 and tier 1 was buffed prior to BWL's release. Imagine going to Vael and being one of the few guilds nearly decked out in pieces of buffed tier 2. Of course i can see how Vael was killed in the first week (but a guildbreaker for other guilds).
I know of Blizzard's original design of classes. Just because you had a healing spec did not mean Blizzard intended you heal in raids. Blizzard tried hard to increase all spec's raid viability. Hence why all gear up through AQ40 had stats/set bonuses that buffed all three specs. It was not until Naxxramas when you saw them give up (temporarily) on this hope.
And i know that Kronos MC will be piss easy if left in the 1.12 state. See, i know a lot of things about vanilla =).
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thatdcdewd
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I didn't mean to be arrongant, god forbid offend you, all I was trying to point out is that you never got to experience blizzlike scripting. Yeah obviously everything up until Broodlord (gearcheck) will be easy especially with DM out at start, still I feel like making MC harder because of the needs of the minority is not fully justified. I don't mind doing tuned raids, I've been raiding without addons and consumables the last 3 years (You know that's an option too when you actually have to watch boss animations to figure out when to do what. With all that 100Mb of addons you degrade vanilla to its current retail state, of course it is easy). It's just that we should be glad that we'll have a server that has (unlike any other server) properly scripted raids. Even if they are way too easy for some, it's free, no one's asking anything in return, yet a lot of people here keep complaining about this "gift", which we could simply enjoy. But instead everyone wants more... Apparently no one here can appreciate the work of these guys and you're expecting them to give you "The Vanilla Experience" just because you missed the original launch. I get it, I totally get it. I would love to relive the whole thing again, but.. Please realize these guys don't owe you anything. They ask you for your opinions, offer minor tweaks so those 40 guys out of potential 1k are pleased too. You want them to revert everything to it's pre-nerf state, "MC in its glory", but what you fail to realize is that your wish is something not even Blizzard would do for money, even when they have the resources and practical skills (they've already done vanilla once so why not). I'm repeating myself here I know, but some people don't realize what we get here.
Also apparently you never got to raid AQ/Naxx which were the real challenges in vanilla. You're all acting like MC/BWL was the pinnacle of raiding when these are simply entry level raids.
Also apparently you never got to raid AQ/Naxx which were the real challenges in vanilla. You're all acting like MC/BWL was the pinnacle of raiding when these are simply entry level raids.
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thatdcdewd
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That's not entirely true. Yes all the sets before Naxx were "good for all spec". Sadly that's only true if you had all spec talented
All the shaman sets before T3 were crappy, you had to combine all of them to get a decent healing gear, and even with that you had way more spell damage than a healer would ever need, yet less than in non-set items as an elemental, and only AQ40 sets had any strength on them so none fit for enhancement either. Originally I wrote a lot longer post but I think you see what I'm trying to point outActually, tier 1 and tier 2 had strength on them. Eight pieces of the Earthfury set would garner you 47 strength, which would pretty much only benefit enhancement. Not that bad considering eight pieces would also give you 110 intellect (which would benefit all three specs). Plus, the 5 set bonus was a bonus to the Strength of Earth/Grace of Air totems.
Hybrid classes were indeed meant to play as hybrids in any sort of instance (raid or dungeons). Paladins were designed to be on the front lines with warriors, regardless of your spec. It was the decision of the players to play them (and all hybrids) as healers only. Path of least resistance, i guess. Too bad. Would have been awesome to play WoW as Blizzard intended it.
thatdcdewd
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alright maybe its my English I can't quite express myself the way I want, but what I said was even when hybrid class sets had hybrid stats on them, you were better off with non-set items always. 47 strength? Yeah back before the set buffs maybe, but then again, that's 94 AP for shaman from 8 pieces of gear. In non-set items you could have twice that much. All those sets were good for nothing (pretty much, as resto you had the most benefit, guess why people were "forced" to play resto). I know you'd prefer raiding with below-optimal setups, because everyone has the right to play the spec they want, and you want to prove that you can beat anything with any setup, but you have to realize vanilla happend the way it did because that was THE WAY to progress. You can't progress 10 years after a game's release, so people might not care that about anymore. I for one don't care either as long as those people are competent, or at least have the basic WASD skills.
But still, bringing below-optimal setup is not fit for progress raiding. What are the advantages of an elemental shaman? His talents give no benefit to party members. How about enhancement? Yeah his str/agi totems give 15% more stat (or WF w/e), that's like 10 more str/agi tops, but then you get a party with slightly increased damage done for 4 members, and a 5th that's only there to improve them, and affects the overall dps output negatively. I support equal rights just as much as the next guy, but you have to understand below-optimum setups will always perform below the optimum.
You think just because some sets/items has bad itemization, Blizzard's intentions were to let everyone play whatever talent they want. Yeah low level cloth items have agility/str on them, should our priests go to the front line too? Just because originally Blizzard wanted to implement monks instead of the current Disc tree?
Btw shaman enhancement tree was supposed to be for tanking, not damaging. Still I don't see many shamans using their (once +defense) now +parry/dodge/armor whatever talent, ever.
Another tip: You want hard raiding? Try raiding horde, where you don't (or barely) have any threat reduction, every 2nd wipe is caused by warlocks pulling agro, sometimes at 10% wiping the raid. On alliance every fight is just tank-n-spank, every dps just presses 1 as often as they can, then it's over. On horde you actually have to watch out for your threat, chill sometimes during the fights and so on. Try it, you won't regret it.
But still, bringing below-optimal setup is not fit for progress raiding. What are the advantages of an elemental shaman? His talents give no benefit to party members. How about enhancement? Yeah his str/agi totems give 15% more stat (or WF w/e), that's like 10 more str/agi tops, but then you get a party with slightly increased damage done for 4 members, and a 5th that's only there to improve them, and affects the overall dps output negatively. I support equal rights just as much as the next guy, but you have to understand below-optimum setups will always perform below the optimum.
You think just because some sets/items has bad itemization, Blizzard's intentions were to let everyone play whatever talent they want. Yeah low level cloth items have agility/str on them, should our priests go to the front line too? Just because originally Blizzard wanted to implement monks instead of the current Disc tree?
Btw shaman enhancement tree was supposed to be for tanking, not damaging. Still I don't see many shamans using their (once +defense) now +parry/dodge/armor whatever talent, ever.
Another tip: You want hard raiding? Try raiding horde, where you don't (or barely) have any threat reduction, every 2nd wipe is caused by warlocks pulling agro, sometimes at 10% wiping the raid. On alliance every fight is just tank-n-spank, every dps just presses 1 as often as they can, then it's over. On horde you actually have to watch out for your threat, chill sometimes during the fights and so on. Try it, you won't regret it.
Well, yes.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that i am a class and item designer in WoW. I make items that have no intended playability. I wasted precious time. I make specs that have no intended playability. Again, i wasted precious time.
Now, there are some of you who believe that some of the gear from some instances were really good in PVP. So, this is saying that PVE gear was meant for PVP (when i already made PVP gear). That is just absurd.
Now, the item designer in me talks to to the class designer in me. One of my goals (and Blizzard backs me up on this on numerous occasions), is to create a class that can level on its own to max level. Even though you can play a holy priest, you have access to some shadow damage spells in order to ease your leveling. I test it out on the PTR (alpha and beta) and players seem to agree.
I then have another goal in mind. All classes should have a specified role in a group scenario. I, for example, intend druids to be a suitable replacement for another role if needed. Your specialization allows you to perform in a chosen role better. I test this out on the PTR and players seem to agree. Raids were not tested, so i have no information here.
But wait! When i release WoW, and have the pinnacle of raiding (MC and Ony) open to everyone, a discrepancy occurs. No longer do i see what i envisioned! There are now three group roles, as opposed to my original nine.
Most of the time it is not fun being a suboptimal spec. True. But it would have been amazing if Blizzard succeeded at their original goal. We would not have this bullshit of class homogenization if they did.
thatdcdewd
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Yes we can both agree on that. But they surely did this on purpose. Later on they did succeed with their "original goal", but in a way where they could make even more money with it. They sold expansions so people craving for improved raid setups would pay to have what they wanted to have since the release of vanilla. It's alright to dream about an alternative vanilla where everything is more balanced like it was in TBC, but it never will be, that's what makes it The Game for many of us.
Btw Blizzard wasn't a bunch of teenage girls who couldn't decide what game they wanted to make. They built a game which was probably way less profitable than the final version of vanilla with the expacs and than decided to scratch that for the game we played in the end. They did not create badly itemized low level gear, because they had way too much freetime, simpy those were the remains of the original version, and were not removed out of negligence/on purpose to make the game even more challenging
PVP gear in vanilla wasn't so different from PVE anyways. Mage PVE sets had less stamina with more int than the PVP equivalent and vica versa. The PVE gear which was fit for PVP more than the actual PVP gear were the AQ loots mostly, and at that level most of the PVP items were outdated. My idea is that they did that so the guys who played the first year of vanilla solo, spending all their time in WSG farming R14 were "forced" to experience PVE, more importantly MM part of MMORPG.
Believe me I'd love to have 9 different roles in raids, but that's just not vanilla.
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But it is vanilla. At least early vanilla, when MC was the pinnacle of raiding. And that discrepancy (Blizzard's 9 roles and the players 3 roles) is one of the major reasons why MC was originally super difficult.
Kronos WoW is not emulating this in the least bit. Raids will not be anywhere near their original state because of this.
I apologize if you are misreading my posts because of your English skills. English is my first and only language, so i don't have this problem.
The gear in ZG is vastly superior to the gear in MC and a lot of the gear in BWL (read: itemization). All the crafted gear, decking warriors and rogues in +hit, healers suddenly drowning in +healing. Releasing ZG before MC and BWL would make those two raids even more of a joke than they already are.
My stance is that the devs should do a proper tuning of the raids to balance out our superior knowledge of the game, gearing, addons and communication in 2015. If you cakewalk up to Majordomo with a green geared raid the first raid night in MC you won't last a month on this server, it's just too boring. Remember that the "BlizzLike" raidtuning back in 2005 was intended for 40 ****ts who barely had a 225k internet access, wrong specs and horrible item choices, barely being able to coordinate a tank'n'spank with a single secondary boss mechanic. Back then people didn't have keybindings bar WASD and 1,2,3.
thatdcdewd
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Kronos team never said they wanted to emulate "your dream version" of vanilla. They are emulating a 1.12 server with possible minor tweaks, because that's what the majority wants. Other than you, no one expects them to downgrade and modify every bit of game data so the entry level raids will fit your taste. People who realize nothing's for free, and yet we'll have Kronos without giving anything in return, are just grateful for having a late-vanilla server, at all. You can keep whining and demoralizing the crowds here, but it won't get you anywhere. Kronos team offered a finger yet you want a whole hand, better even a whole body. Hopefully someday you'll realize complaining about free stuff is just rude.
Mocking my English skills is also a sign of a mature personality.
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They design a class with a weak tank spec and weak dps spec (for 40-man raiding environments), yet you somehow imply that it was the players "choice" to play paladins as healers? Amazingly you mention path of least resistance in the sentence after, explaining that it was NOT the players choice, but simply the natural gravitation towards optimizing raid setups. No GM's allowed enhancement shamans, retribution paladins or feral druids simply because it was a net loss for the raid. This is not a player choice, this is the raid leaders hand being forced by Blizzards poor spec design.
thatdcdewd
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You also listed the things you "learned" about vanilla. Apparently no one ever told you that theoretical knowledge is not equivalent to technical experience. Sure you can read all the patch notes, ask friends for (subjective) opinions about one patch or the other but you'll never have what actually gives you a right to say "I want that experience". You don't know what it was like, because you can't know.
Don't you think I had tried elemental shaman raiding before posting all that crap? Hell I even tanked AQ with enh talents and it was terrible. Just because you didn't find any documentation on "hybrid raiding" I doesn't mean it didn't exist. Not everyone took notes, and stuff like that were soooo unimportant, no one on the Shaman PVE topic took notes, because it was pure shit. That is why PVE turned into 3 roles only, that was the optimum. Why do something badly when it takes just as much effort to do it the right way?
All your post are just assumptions and theories, how you imagined the alternative vanilla/perfect vanilla. That never existed, not even when Blizzard managed the game. In the first few months after the release some of the high pop servers were so unstable, you were unable to play, if ever managed to get online. You're talking about raiding, which was only available for a very lucky few.
I love how you're trying to teach people with actual experience the basic mentality of vanilla, when you had nothing to do with it. What you fail to realize is that you're chasing a dream, you don't even know what it is, just heard/read how awesome it was and keep demanding that experience.
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Actually, you brought up your poor English skills first. I was just inferring that your poor English skills might be the reason why you are not understanding my argument. If that is the case, i wanted to apologize. If you are not understanding my argument because a lack of intelligence, then i do not apologize. I'm leaning to the latter.
But, they did. In one of their videos, TwinStar advertises this server to be "just like it was on retail."
without BWL, ZG, AQ, and Naxx is not just like it was on retail.
I won't speak for anyone but myself, because i don't have to. There are multiple threads that have a lot of other people who want a challenging (and thus a better reflection of 'just like it was on retail') Molten Core.
True, i have never played a day of vanilla. But, according to theories of knowledge, i can know what it was like. And, i can know what Blizzard intended early on in vanilla WoW. The fact that you fight me on Blizzard's own intentions without any evidence is embarrassing on your part.
Actually, no. I have never thought that you tried elemental shaman raiding. I did not know that you were a shaman in vanilla, nor did i care. Again, you are misunderstanding my post.
No, i do not imply that it was the players' choice to play paladins as healers. In one of the other threads on this topic, a video is linked where Blizzard stated it outright. No need for me to imply it when it came out of their mouths.
Sounds like a choice to me.
Mainwall and Thatdcdewd, before you sound even more logically flawed, i would take some time to read through your arguments. Just a friendly tip. =)
SgtFreakshow
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So much this... I remember while we were all waiting for TBC to launch, the talk of the town was that all hybrids were going to be comptetitive, I was so hyped, and got so disappointed when I first saw the new TBC talent trees and realised that Blizzard weren't making hybrids viable, they were just completely deleting the concept of hybrid classes.
darkglobe317
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- Jan 13, 2015
no. just no. if its not
broke dont fix it.
broke dont fix it.
And if it is broken, as was pointed out many times in this thread, can it be fixed?