The Question of Naxxramas Difficulty

[shard]

At work and have only had time to glance at some Elysium streams now and then, but my first impression is that it's as disappointingly easy as I expected.

-Some EU guild called Phoenix one shot Patchwerk with over 1:30 left on berkserk timer
-Scuba Cops (extremely disorganized yet best NA guild??) completely bypassed Maexxna's enrage by taking her 34% to 0 between Web Wrap phases... sigh
-At one point during Razuvious trash some guy on their voice coms says "they don't hurt and die instantly so let's just keep pulling"

Have three streams open at the moment and each guild I'm watching is breezing through Naxx, one shotting all these loot pinatas... Just imagine what full AQ bis players like those on Kronos will do.

 

[Slippy]

^^^
I'm watching Scuba right now and they've wiped 2 times on Loatheb so far. Heigan was extremely close with a couple left alive and dots finishing the job. The two best guilds from what I hear made good progress but are currently wiping on 4HM.

 

[shard]

Yea good to see some wipes finally. I don't think this Scuba Cops guild was prepared at all for Loatheb (or Naxx in general tbh). 1/4 of the raid wasn't even using shadow pots, paladins were just standing around doing nothing, warlocks were lifetapping...

 

[Chainsaw]

Half of the scuba cop raid just died on grobbolus trash. So much for loot pinatas.

 

[Brezel]

Doesn't that argument work against you though?
If they even wipe on trash, but can kill most of the bosses?

 

[Chainsaw]

You could see it like that. But they did like 8/15 while others did 14/15, so only half of the Wings others did. Further, Grobbulus is not the hardest of all bosses, basically a pimped venoxis to match 40 man difficulty. What I was actually trying to point out is that some people will still struggle and need two raid nights in order to reach KT and is no matter if they do so on bosses or on trash.

 

[DarkStorm]

You could see it like that. But they did like 8/15 while others did 14/15, so only half of the Wings others did. Further, Grobbulus is not the hardest of all bosses, basically a pimped venoxis to match 40 man difficulty. What I was actually trying to point out is that some people will still struggle and need two raid nights in order to reach KT and is no matter if they do so on bosses or on trash.

I sympathize with what you are saying here and I have been thinking of ways to solve the issue for the guilds that will not be able to clear Naxxramas within 1 raid night. I heard someone suggest that they might want to optimize their playstyle, use more consumables or tidy up their strats but that would imply that it has anything to do with themselves. Obviously the problem here is the game is too hard and the game has to be changed so that lesser performing guilds can clear Naxxramas in one night.

Perhaps instead of releasing Naxxramas, Chero could instead code something that randomizes items from Naxx bosses and mails it directly to the players of these guilds? Instead of using valuable time that could be used to read cancerous spam in Discord a simple solution could be coded in a matter of hours that would solve the issue for these guilds.

Im very worried that not every single guild will be able to clear Naxxramas in one night and the horrific ramifications it could have on their overall life so I would urge the developers to implement a casual friendly solution to this.

 

[Sarei]

I didn't watch streams much besides Dreamstate's KT atempts, but from what I've seen most of the time people died because many of them weren't familiar with the mechanics rather then content being hard. For example, when I watched Phoenix people died to slimes because they stood too close to the spawn spot and asspulled when they respawned, or didn't even sacrifice on Faerlina at first, let alone do the most basic thing like preasign some priest to do that. RL literally said "someone MC something and sacrifice" at some point, like wat. Watched Scuba Cops on Thaddius and all casters that died, died due to going ham right of the bat, overaggroing and getting oneshotted. Like wtf do you expect to happen if you spam 10k bolts viciously from the very moment boss was engaged. Content itself was piss easy and next ID when everyone knows what's up it will go 10x smoother AND they don't even have the amount of damage that we do.
But shit, it will take 2 raiddays even for an average guild to reach the Frostwyrm Lair and finish the game, even though their raids were clusterfuck most of the time - better nerf it down

 

[Topmong]

Grobbulus is not the hardest of all bosses, basically a pimped venoxis

Can you explain this comparison.

Cheers.

 

[power93]

Kt would have been dead unless they didn't make it unkillable, the adds in P3 can't be CCd or slowed and can't be tanked either. They are going to fix it on Wednesday, so KT won't die until then unless they find a new way to deal with the adds

 

[nimeralos]

Kt would have been dead unless they didn't make it unkillable, the adds in P3 can't be CCd or slowed and can't be tanked either. They are going to fix it on Wednesday, so KT won't die until then unless they find a new way to deal with the adds

Hopefully, Kronos won't release bosses with severe bugs, unlike that other server always does. And it means that KT will die as expected - in 1-3 days. But, hopefully, it won't be the case for the majority of guilds.

 

[power93]

Lol what makes you so sure?, did Kronos never have any bugs in their AQ40 for example ?
The difference is that Kronos has bugs that made their raids too easy, while Elysium had bugs that made bosses way harder.

 

[NedStark]

Make me proud Synced, I have a bet to win. Dont let these vg cunts get to your head.

 

[Losse]

bugs that made their raids too easy

Like invincible Fankriss worms on release?

 

[nimeralos]

Lol what makes you so sure?, did Kronos never have any bugs in their AQ40 for example ?
The difference is that Kronos has bugs that made their raids too easy, while Elysium had bugs that made bosses way harder.

I didn't say I'm sure, I said I hope But generally, I feel that Kronos had way better releases so far. In BWL, the only big bug was an OP Chrom. In AQ40, the large amount of bugs had something to do with wrong transition from the PTR, and I hope that they can do it properly this time.

 

[Slippy]

I watched a lot of the Naxx runs yesterday and it looked plenty difficult. I think it took around 8 hours for the first guild to reach KT before they wiped on him for hours. The runs I watched had the entire raid flasked and were going through boatloads of consumes due to losing people on almost every trash pull. On the KT attempts they were doing everything right until the last, bugged, phase. I think this is all we can ask barring making the bosses unkillable. No matter what it will still take a ton of prep every week and multiple raid nights to clear.

 

[gly]

I suppose I'll be a little more transparent about the motivations behind my previous posts in this topic since it's all in vain anyway...

In my brief time playing here I was already getting annoyed by the ridiculous damage and range that melee abilities could reach in PvP, as well the reduced options to deny spellcaster burst damage. I can't imagine how much more painful this will be to play against when guilds are gearing up their power rangers from effortlessly farming 14/15 Naxxramas every week. The balance wasn't too bad on Feenix because smart play and clever positioning would sometimes be rewarded if you were massively outgeared by your opponent(s) but I think it would require beyond god-tier gameplay to get anywhere here after the loot piñata has been unveiled on Kronos.

While it's definitely an unpopular opinion I'm sure there are others thinking about it too. At least it's on record now!

Sure am glad I didn't plant any serious roots into this project

 

[shard]

I watched a lot of the Naxx runs yesterday and it looked plenty difficult. I think it took around 8 hours for the first guild to reach KT before they wiped on him for hours. The runs I watched had the entire raid flasked and were going through boatloads of consumes due to losing people on almost every trash pull. On the KT attempts they were doing everything right until the last, bugged, phase. I think this is all we can ask barring making the bosses unkillable. No matter what it will still take a ton of prep every week and multiple raid nights to clear.

Completely the opposite for me, as someone who actually cleared Naxx back in retail. It was extremely disappointing watching Elysium guilds who were clearly inexperienced, unprepared, and far less geared than Kronos guilds go in and easily 1-shot a lot of bosses that back in retail took most guild days, weeks, even months to finally kill. Watching some crap guild called Salad Bakers fail repeatedly to figure out how to do Heigan trash, and then go 1-shot Patchwerk with over 2:30 left on berserk timer was sickening. Having to listen to *****s on every guild's voice com repeatedly laugh about how easy stuff was, and how fast shit was dying, was infuriating to say the least... And these are just the "average" guilds...

And maybe this was something the Elysium staff announced (I don't read their forum so wouldn't know), but from watching Dreamstate's KT attempts, I personally didn't notice any obvious bugs. I saw adds shackled, and adds tanked, so not sure what exactly could be bugged. The adds spawned, they got them under control, but once KT used his Mind Control ability, they lost control of every attempt, and it wiped them. If they would have decided to try waiting for an MC before pushing the boss to P3 then they probably would have killed it yesterday, even if there is some sort of bug with the guardian adds.

 

[Sarei]

Yeah they did that in the last try ot two, stopped DPS at 41% and waited for the MC before breaking 40%. That looked like a kill to me, was pretty smooth transition with everyone alive and then suddenly people started dying. If I understood right, the bug is that mobs become unshackleable and untankable at some moment and just roam around oneshotting people.. I'm not sure tho so don't quote me on that. But it still looked like a kill to me, think they'll do it today even with the bug.

 

[Slippy]

Completely the opposite for me, as someone who actually cleared Naxx back in retail. It was extremely disappointing watching Elysium guilds who were clearly inexperienced, unprepared, and far less geared than Kronos guilds go in and easily 1-shot a lot of bosses that back in retail took most guild days, weeks, even months to finally kill. Watching some crap guild called Salad Bakers fail repeatedly to figure out how to do Heigan trash, and then go 1-shot Patchwerk with over 2:30 left on berserk timer was sickening. Having to listen to *****s on every guild's voice com repeatedly laugh about how easy stuff was, and how fast shit was dying, was infuriating to say the least... And these are just the "average" guilds...

And maybe this was something the Elysium staff announced (I don't read their forum so wouldn't know), but from watching Dreamstate's KT attempts, I personally didn't notice any obvious bugs. I saw adds shackled, and adds tanked, so not sure what exactly could be bugged. The adds spawned, they got them under control, but once KT used his Mind Control ability, they lost control of every attempt, and it wiped them. If they would have decided to try waiting for an MC before pushing the boss to P3 then they probably would have killed it yesterday, even if there is some sort of bug with the guardian adds.

There isn't that much difference in gear. Most of them have been farming BWL for years and have had months in AQ. Nothing is going to replicate 2006 difficulty for all the reasons stated before. Is a 12 hour raid not enough? If Kronos buffed it as much as you want it buffed nobody is going to want to raid it after the first few weeks when the novelty wears off.

 

[shard]

There isn't that much difference in gear. Most of them have been farming BWL for years and have had months in AQ. Nothing is going to replicate 2006 difficulty for all the reasons stated before. Is a 12 hour raid not enough? If Kronos buffed it as much as you want it buffed nobody is going to want to raid it after the first few weeks when the novelty wears off.

There is a HUGE difference in gear. You're either uninformed, or simply delusional if you think otherwise.

Nothing can replicate retail Naxx progression. You're right. But I don't want it to be a joke, like it currently is on Elysium. Kronos can do much better...

- - - Updated - - -

 

[gly]

If Kronos buffed it as much as you want it buffed nobody is going to want to raid it after the first few weeks when the novelty wears off.

When has something ever been so difficult in the history of WoW servers - both private and on retail - that it relieves its players of that addiction to the game?

When the difficulty is set to the point where only the best of the best guilds can fully clear the content it makes the rewards more desirable. The lesser guilds will still be able to scrape through the easier wings of Naxx, but the prospect that the endgame content is possible for other people has historically motivated players to improve. I can't help but feel that we've been over this a dozen times, by now, in this thread alone.

Unfortunately there is a pretty clear majority of people here who desperately want their Blizzlike experience and I appreciate that the developers don't want to risk alienating their flock of dweebs for the sake of a genuinely fun and challenging WoW project.

Anyway, there's a nice 'period' discussion here about overtuned bosses in vanilla WoW, for the purists out there. It highlights the mentality of players that I'd quite like to see on Kronos to replace what are predicted to be 'defeatists' who'll give up if Heigen actually puts up a fight.

 

[Slippy]

The rogue I'm watching here doesn't look too undergeared with his Maladath, AQR and Deathdealer set. Come watch what maybe the 20th wipe so far on KT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9a89G-1zW8

And gly, what you're describing is exactly what has unfolded. Only the top two have made it past 4HM and Sapphiron. The others have cleared wings here and there but not been able to go further. This is how it should be.

 

[gly]

And gly, what you're describing is exactly what has unfolded. Only the top two have made it past 4HM and Sapphiron. The others have cleared wings here and there but not been able to go further. This is how it should be.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to this, Naxx has only been open for a whopping two days, and two guilds have already powered through to KT?

 

[Slippy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to this, Naxx has only been open for a whopping two days, and two guilds have already powered through to KT?

And? The guild on KT have been grinding ever since it opened to get server first. They've been preparing for months as evidenced by full consumes on probably 25+ wipes on KT alone. Not counting the wipes on 4HM and random trash. How hard exactly do you want this thing?