The Question of Naxxramas Difficulty
- Thread starter Bazzil
- Start date
Spider wing cleared after the first week
Razuvious, Noth and Heigen the following week
Patch and Grob the week after
Wipe for a few weeks before getting either Thaddius or Loatheb
Start to think about Gothik after at least 2 months
Four Horsemen after 6 months
Are you starting to get the idea? Or you can just get it all on a silver platter...
So you want even the so-called "easy" wings buffed out of sight? Gotcha. Enjoy farming 6+ flasks and regular consumes every week just to have a chance. And have fun getting 40 other people willing to do the same for any length of time. In my experience guilds usually fall apart after 1 or 2 raids of wiping all night. Watch how quick people get pissed and stop turning up if they're wiping on a fight that requires heavy consumable usage.
Seems like a high quality PvE scene on Kronos
Don't worry - there are plenty of other things keeping me from playing on Kronos (or WoW in general).
It's too much of a Blizzlike (and even above) experience, and can even hardly be achieved. Guilds in retail days had a huge room for improvement. Guilds of today does not. Today, it's either unkillable, or it's cleared in a few days by the top guilds.
The only thing that could make it a few IDs rather than few days is a huge Sapphiron's aura buff that would force people to farm frostres in Naxx. But other than that, you're asking for impossible.
Your sincerely,
Huge fan of a reasonable Naxx buff
OnslaughtFei
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- Apr 28, 2015
Kronos is not about a blizzlike experience. 1.12 gear and talents on mc and bwl isnt a blizzlike experience. 7x experience leveling wasnt a blizzlike experience. 1 green dragon rolled out at a time wasnt blizzlike. 5g respects, dynamic spawns, trees counting as los in pvp arent blizzlike experiences.
you can only emulate the values. that is the only thing objective. experiences arent objective.
you can only emulate the values. that is the only thing objective. experiences arent objective.
Yet people expect this 12 years old game with all strategies available to be hard and challenging, which is imho the biggest problem when we talk about naxx tuning. Yesterday I saw Shard advertising with something like "if you do not want to wipe in naxx, join risen" (not the exact words, but the meaning). The same person vouches for harder raids because all of kronos is, according to him, lfr difficulty. This is so contradictive that I cannot even find words for it.
If people want a harder raid experience in general, they shall maybe start on the German nefarian realm, which has some Kind of resilience added to raids, play Detail mythic progression or you should start raiding in blue quality gear. What? you find that ridiculous? Imho expecting the kronos Staff to tune raids for YOU and expecting EVERYONE who ain't as good/hasn't got as much time as you to man up and farm dem comsumables and "git gud" is far more ridiculous?
The decision on this case is already made by the kronos Stadt, but the amount of crybabies and selfish *****s who only care about themselves in this thread has long gotten out of hand.
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backpedwarlock
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- Apr 19, 2016
Xd gz casuals
Wow. I assume English is probably not your first language, but "if you do not want to wipe in naxx join risen" is a pretty far stretch from what my recruitment message actually says.
And because myself and others continue to fight for what we believe is in the best interest of server, we are "selfish crybabies?" Thanks. Really shows what kind of person you are.
You twist people's word's. You call people names. You argue for inclusion (making raids easier), yet play on a vanilla server, and are a member of the guild known for being the most hardcore. Still trying to figure that last one out. Sorry, but in my mind, you've lost all credibility.
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Spazztastic
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- Oct 5, 2014
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- Southern California, USA
Well your latest guild recruitment has made me raise an eyebrow
we know the top guilds poach players, but that advertisement was pretty blatant
"leave your bad guild for my better guild" was more or less the core of the ad
we know the top guilds poach players, but that advertisement was pretty blatant
"leave your bad guild for my better guild" was more or less the core of the ad
Asking for blizz-like doesn't equal a request to "make raids easier". As if we want every guild who wipes in MC to be able to come along and collect Naxx loot to protect their feelings. Nobody has made the thread "Nerf Naxx!".
The good thing is now we have real data on so-called Blizz-like Naxx from Realmplayers.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidList.aspx?realm=Ana&InstanceFilter=Naxx
Your eyes might bleed looking at this one. Just the 1402 deaths.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=89641
Still want to buff it?
The good thing is now we have real data on so-called Blizz-like Naxx from Realmplayers.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidList.aspx?realm=Ana&InstanceFilter=Naxx
Your eyes might bleed looking at this one. Just the 1402 deaths.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=89641
Still want to buff it?
It it already announced that Naxx will be buffed. But yea, we can still discuss the degree... For now, it's "small damage and HP boost". I'd say, 8 wipes on 4HM and Sapph is quite a low amount. We wiped about 8 times on Chrom and Nef back in the day. On the other hand, we are not the top guild. So maybe "small boost" is exactly what we need to spend a few IDs clearing Naxx.
Lenni
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- Joined
- Nov 1, 2015
is it that "blizzlike" server where each hit of blizzard can trigger clearcast and ice/frost armor can trigger frostbite?
If the toughest bosses in Naxx are dying in only a handful of attempts, yes, of course they need to be buffed.
When I saw that yesterday, I was on a voice chat with someone who is a native English speaker and also understood it like I did.
Wow, you finally experienced what I experience each time I vouch for a blizzlike naxx, not to talk about the facepalm squads. May I hand you a tissue?
Further I am not arguing for inclusion, but, other than you, for a vanilla version of naxx because I already know that even under normal circumstances more than a hand full of guilds will struggle. Yep, it is hard to understand why I do that, especially since I'm in the guild you describe as most hardcore, so I'll try to explain you why. I've played on 3 different vanilla private servers and at there was always a more or less big "elite" of players who were sacrificing much of their time in the game. The problem with that was always that average players, which made more than 3/5-4/5 of the server's population most of the time, were NOT online 24/7 ingame and on the forums of the respective server and subsequently these servers ALWAYS developed in the direction the "elite" players wanted it to develop, because they were just making use of their voice much more than anyone else (this is, as I am sure you know, commonly also known as crying in order to get some particular bug fixed, for example). What happened to these servers was for example on Feenix-Warsong, that only one or two guilds killed Kel'thuzad a couple of times and nobody else could. For the average guild Sapphiron was hard to kill and KT was impossible. Finally, when Emerald Dream was released, everybody left Warsong because of the promise that ED would be 100% blizzlike, with no out of hand tuning. Same on the German Nefarian realm, where only 3 or 4 guilds killed C'thun for over a year. Okay, other guilds also SOMETIMES killed it if they had a full raid and were fully world buffed. The whole AQ was so over tuned that even the top guilds had to use flask and every world buff available to clear it in like 2 hours. My old guild with normal players (which usually make 3/5-4/5 of the player base on a healthy server) broke apart because the best people in our guild always were soaked by top guilds, no matter how many newcomers we recruited. It wasn't just that Cthun or other bosses in AQ were a bit harder, it was massively buffed. Same for BWL. A typical BWL run took 3 hours or a whole raid night because everything was hitting super hard and fast. Even though this sounds like a pleasant, challenging and hard blizzlike version of the game, it was in fact only super annoying to prepare all the consumables, and I am definately NOT the kind of person who slacks on consumables (currently I can raid over a year without ever buying/farming anything consumable related).
And now comes the reason to why I am AGAINST a buffed version of naxx: most of the normal players do NOT have a stock of several 100s or 1000s frost and shadow protection potions like the players in "elite" guilds usually prepare, maybe they have 40 of those potions which will be burned after a few IDs and then shit gets super expensive because everyone is in need of the mats for it. For the majority of people farming 50g (if that's still the price) to buy a stack of plaguebloom or 110g in order to get that lotus is NOT as easy as it seems for somebody who has played this game for a very long time. And these players are what keeps our server healthy. We rely on them and without them we would have even more of a ghost town server and even less fresh blood to recruit. Personally I do not care about fucking loot (I bring this up because you often mention loot pinatas). Caring about the loot is fucking ridiculous. Also this attitude "he didn't try as hard as I did, so he does not deserver t3". Do you really need to set yourself apart from others by having loot they don't have? I really cannot believe that you think like that. If you want to show you're good and set yourself apart from others, then do speed runs, like everyone else does in old games to prove their skill (just search youtube e.g. for super mario bros speed run, sonic the hedgehog 2 speed run, etc). And I cannot believe that you want to change the naxxramas for everyone, just because you're personally not satisfied with the game's difficulty.
Surprise. Surprise. In a 12 years old game. Maybe after such a long time and with so much knowledge, vanilla is just not what you remember it to be. Back then the lack of knowledge made the game difficult.
Man, really, I don't wanna argue with you because I have a good opinion of you, but you should really start to think about how difficult vanilla actually really was and what you expect from the server and also not forget that you're not alone on this server. I understand if you want the same feeling as back then, but that is already gone with multi accounts, multiboxing, x7, 45 warlock summoning, screwed timeline, 1.12.1 items, and and and. The best would REALLY be to make a new server which is very hard and challenging by yourself.
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bl4ckc0d3r
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- May 22, 2015
Woah, Shard, easy there. Why do you insult my guild like that!
I know I stated earlier that I don't consider you stupid, but honestly at this point I'm not so sure anymore... "Tired of struggling through farm-content? Join Risen" translates in Chainsaw-speak to "Join Risen we'll never wipe in Naxx?". Shard knows there are hidden gems/tryhards in smaller/lesser guilds and he tries to appeal to these with his advertisement. How is that worse than Synced "We are the most experienced guild, come raid Naxx with the best guild" or "world boss domination Vanguard"? It's called recruitment strategy - something you might've realized if you weren't so fucking dense and so desperate for attention.
You have absolutely zero credibility left on these forums. It's just plain sad at this point that you keep trying to be relevant. All you fucking do is try to paint a picture of Shard and other pro-buff-Naxx-ppl as selfish tryhard people who only want Naxx buffed to satisfy their own selfish desires. You could've done that with ONE post and then leave the discussion to the people who actually bring something constructive to the table.
News-Flash: Even in Memento Mori, an average guild on Kronos, there's people demanding a harder Naxxramas. This is not something that's only wanted by players in Risen, Vanguard and Synced; not even close.
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bl4ckc0d3r
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- May 22, 2015
All of chainsaws arguments devolve into insults I really can't be arsed to reply. I prefer Varth tbh.
However I want to point out if you're using real players to justify KT difficulty in blizzlike Naxx just know you are spreading misinformation. KT phase 3 is bugged there and this makes the encounter difficult thus buffing the boss. You cannot justify blizzlike Naxx by the amount of wipes on KT on elysium since that data does not actually prove your point
However I want to point out if you're using real players to justify KT difficulty in blizzlike Naxx just know you are spreading misinformation. KT phase 3 is bugged there and this makes the encounter difficult thus buffing the boss. You cannot justify blizzlike Naxx by the amount of wipes on KT on elysium since that data does not actually prove your point
My guild got 10/15 in ~8h of raiding (Loatheb, Gothik ect still alive). The raid pretty much reaffirmed my belief that knowing the best strats makes the instance somewhat easy. We made a lot of progress because our RL knew the strats, we had one of Dreamstates MTs in our raid helping with the specifics, and we had a very accurate bigwigs that was custom made the day of release with accurate timers. Despite having all that + full consumes raidwide we had 698 deaths on bosses, and 260 deaths on trash.
All that being said, the instance I think would be improved by a +10%-20% hp buff across the board for Kronos for those 10 bosses + maybe the rest but I need to try them first. Among other things melee do way more damage on Kronos due to armor on bosses so the hp should be buffed accordingly for that + a bit more so the encounters last a bit longer. Maybe up to 30%ish for bosses like Gluth and Heigan who died really fast.
Fun as fuck instance though, lots of movement and repositioning. It's reallllllly obvious who the bad players are on a couple of these fights. The hype is justified and the wait was and is worth it.
All that being said, the instance I think would be improved by a +10%-20% hp buff across the board for Kronos for those 10 bosses + maybe the rest but I need to try them first. Among other things melee do way more damage on Kronos due to armor on bosses so the hp should be buffed accordingly for that + a bit more so the encounters last a bit longer. Maybe up to 30%ish for bosses like Gluth and Heigan who died really fast.
Fun as fuck instance though, lots of movement and repositioning. It's reallllllly obvious who the bad players are on a couple of these fights. The hype is justified and the wait was and is worth it.
I would like to apologize for all insults. Sometimes when discussions are heated up I am a bit careless with my use of words. We have some different opinions about how it shall be but the vote results speak for themselves and thanks god our devs respect them.
Sarei
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- Feb 9, 2016
So once you've tried it, you're in the "Buff it" club now? And the only reason you wiped that much is cause most people probably had no clue what are they doing, where to move or position, etc., next week when everyone knows what's up it's gonna be 10x smoother. All streams that I watched are literally full of backpedallers and clickers and they cleared 10 bosses on the first day. I did few raids in Momento Mori, which is labeled as an average Kronos guild, on my friend's character when he couldn't make it in the last few months and they seemed way better and more organized then what I saw in those raids. So how about all of you who have no clue what are you talking about, like Varth was till 2 days ago, stop spreading your Blizzlike aids just in order to say something. Like literally the only Blizzlike nerd in this topic who has some Naxx experience is Fei, but his reason for an easy Naxx is that he's sick of the game and wants to be done with it as soon as possible so he doesn't really bring any good arguments for "Blizzlike Naxx - Good Naxx" imo.
As for Chainsaw, I already said he's Kamchak of PvE community. All his posts are somewhat along the lines of this legendary comment and many others that Kamchak threw on us, just in a PvE manner
There are a lot of things to learn in life. The most difficult one I have ever had to deal with (and accept) is that no matter what you do, it will not be enough to please everyone. It sucks, but that's life for better or worse.
We all have personal preferences when it comes to raid difficulty. Some want to fight tooth and nail to feel the thrill and challenge that the original naxx gave us as players, some prefer laid back loot piñata kind of raids. and there are tons of people who find themselves in between the two. Choosing anything other than the preference will leave some unhappy, even choosing "middle ground" where both sides give up some of what they want makes all players degrees of "not happy". We have had years of raid data to spill over, we've had the voices from you the community; and even with all of that there could never be an "easy answer".
As part of the admins of the server, I can tell you from where I sit that each and every one of us wanted to give the players the best experience possible in the hopes that players from across the raid spectrum will lose themselves in the content rather than "I'm not happy that X was done or not done". 100% blizzlike numbers may have worked in 2006 for difficulty, but the gaming world and players have come a long way in 11 years. The difficulty of Naxx was not so much in the stats, but more of a product of its time. We also did not want Naxx to be a complete cakewalk. Naxx is the climax raid of Vanilla. This is not lost on us, and as such this is where both you (the community) and we (the project) have been building to. We don't want the instance to be on the same level of difficulty as have been the previous tiers of raids. Guilds farming MC/BWL shouldn't be able to come in and do significant damage to the content.
With testing and discussion, we strongly hope to find "best" middle ground of all spectrums that we can. All I can say & hope is that players have an open mind and give it a fair chance. We can't fully re-create the difficulty of the times (2006) in 2017 without doing drastic changes, and as was made clear in our poll there was no consensus for major changes. But we are going to do what we can to make naxx not a "snooze fest" for the upper echelon guilds while not providing guild-killing changes for the middle of the pack & lower echelon guilds. No one wants another Sunwell Plateau effect on guilds.
We all have personal preferences when it comes to raid difficulty. Some want to fight tooth and nail to feel the thrill and challenge that the original naxx gave us as players, some prefer laid back loot piñata kind of raids. and there are tons of people who find themselves in between the two. Choosing anything other than the preference will leave some unhappy, even choosing "middle ground" where both sides give up some of what they want makes all players degrees of "not happy". We have had years of raid data to spill over, we've had the voices from you the community; and even with all of that there could never be an "easy answer".
As part of the admins of the server, I can tell you from where I sit that each and every one of us wanted to give the players the best experience possible in the hopes that players from across the raid spectrum will lose themselves in the content rather than "I'm not happy that X was done or not done". 100% blizzlike numbers may have worked in 2006 for difficulty, but the gaming world and players have come a long way in 11 years. The difficulty of Naxx was not so much in the stats, but more of a product of its time. We also did not want Naxx to be a complete cakewalk. Naxx is the climax raid of Vanilla. This is not lost on us, and as such this is where both you (the community) and we (the project) have been building to. We don't want the instance to be on the same level of difficulty as have been the previous tiers of raids. Guilds farming MC/BWL shouldn't be able to come in and do significant damage to the content.
With testing and discussion, we strongly hope to find "best" middle ground of all spectrums that we can. All I can say & hope is that players have an open mind and give it a fair chance. We can't fully re-create the difficulty of the times (2006) in 2017 without doing drastic changes, and as was made clear in our poll there was no consensus for major changes. But we are going to do what we can to make naxx not a "snooze fest" for the upper echelon guilds while not providing guild-killing changes for the middle of the pack & lower echelon guilds. No one wants another Sunwell Plateau effect on guilds.