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    TwinStar team

AQ40 did not live up to the Kronos standard

Great you can compare the date to the first one I come across so i don't have to sift through countless logs :laugh:
 
Hagson said:
We all played the same dungeon and killed the same bosses, we were just one hour faster than you. You said yourself during the meeting that your positioning was improper and that cost you
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Our positioning was not improper, it just worked less well with the bugs. I honestly am beyond words that you can't even acknowledge that you were luckier with the bugs at Sapphiron. Absolutely appalled. You were 7 minutes faster, not an hour; no matter how often you try to repeat that lie.

Hagson said:
Anyone looking objectively at the situation would come to the same conclusion.
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Anyone looking at it objectively knows that you are talking a ton of BS here and has the proof in the gifs we posted. Had you encountered the same bugs at Sapphiron, there is no way you would have had that kind of lead going into KT. You were sore losers in AQ, but the indignity you are displaying after winning Naxx so clearly due to bugs is even more reprehensible.
 
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ermean, i never claimed we started practicing naxxramas after we saw you guys do it, did i?

let me repeat: the day before kronos' release of BWL over 2 years ago, we saw you guys training on emerald dream to get an unfair advantage for the BWL race. I'll spare you from telling how that race went despite your cheap attempt to get an advantage.

it was there and then when it clicked in my head and i understood how cheap you guys are, that you're looking for any unfair advantage over other guilds that you could get.
my mistake was then to follow your paths, because i couldn't just let my guild get cheated on again in the future. so for the AQ and Naxx races we had to play your dirty game aswell, because leaving the #1 spot to you, just because we didn't 'work for it hard enough' as Ermean would probably have called it, was not an option for me, i'm too competitively minded for that.

now you say that you guys didn't practice for AQ at all... well, from former experiences with your guild, that's hard to believe, specially since you did it again now for Naxxramas.

if a codex could have been followed that would have said, that no guild would ever test raid dungeons elsewhere, i would have been among the first to sign that. but since some level of animosity has always been there, starting from your side ever since you lost BWL, it's unrealistic to believe that such a thing could have ever happened.

so it is what it is...
 
We had characters on ED since Feenix was still on life support so we went there before BWL, yes.

We had people submit written "guides" on how to do AQ40 before its release. We didn't go to Rebirth PTR, or Corecraft, or anything like that. Looking back, we should have. You don't need to believe this I guess.

And no, you didn't claim it. Marelle did.
 
The amount of elitism in this thread makes me sick.

You are complaining that a free product isn't 100% perfect. If you had any experience with large scale IT projects you would know that what the Kronos staff pulled off is a massive feat. Hats off to them. The most glaring bugs will be fixed down the line. Some will remain for a long time, since the ressources of a free-to-play project are naturally limited. Go make a donation instead of attacking the dev team.

My guild had loads of fun in Naxxramas. A big thank you from us!
 
Amoonir said:
I’m going to start off with I don’t care at all for the server first race here because it was spoiled from the get go. I didn’t see Risen getting server first the second I heard Vanguard and Synced were practicing on their own naxx PTR. This would be like allowing k1 guilds to progress AQ40 on k2 against k2 guilds after k1 guilds had farmed AQ40 for 4 months. Of course the k1 guilds will have faster clear times they are experienced on everything about AQ40 while k2 guilds most likely have little to no recent experience. To them this was just another naxx clear while to us it was our first. But despite this you bet your ass our guild still went in there and progressed as if we weren't at a severe disadvantage. We even hit our heads in the wall that was KT for hours on both Saturday and Sunday just to see how far we could get as well as see all the bugs VG and Synced were complaining about for ourselves while potentially finding new ones. Even though I feel a lot of the instance was more buggy than I predicted on release I will thank kronos again for releasing this content I really did enjoy it despite there being a bit more bugs than I would have hoped for.

Now here comes my complaining at BLATANT favoritism. Why is the hotfix for this boss being delayed? I know that without hotfixes this boss is almost impossible but I will say I had a decent amount of fun just getting this guy to 74%. I know Synced and Vanguard got into discussion with the kronos team but this hotfix delay is completely off precedent and a big fuck you to other guilds on this server who didn't even get to give input. I strictly remember in AQ40 that the server was reset MULTIPLE times because Synced was on twin emps and that boss from what I hear was broken beyond belief so of course when a boss has mechanical bugs that need to be addressed you fixed it as a team. This reduced Synced’s lead and allowed Vanguard to catch up but I don’t remember Synced complaining about this or requesting that the fixes for this boss be delayed until the next reset so the race could be “re-started” again. Risen wiped because of resets that happened for twin emps IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR BOSS ENCOUNTERS. But do you think we complained? That boss had bugs that made it impossible that needed to be fixed and it was fixed that's how it should be. Yeah sure it fucks with the race but this happens when bosses aren’t properly tested. The same was true for Anub, patchwerk, and sapph because when there are bugs you hotfix them that’s how it goes. So why for KT when there are blatant bugs for the fight the decision is to wait until the next reset? We had to kill bugged anub and patchwerk and we didn't demand that they remain bugged until the next reset so other guilds have to struggle with a bugged encounter. I don’t see why KT should be any different.


In the end in my own eyes what transpired here is pretty clear. This server is created and designed for Synced and Vanguard as their own personal sandbox.Did Risen, Easy, Immortals, Onslaught, Wipe Club, Agony, Unite and Vanquish, not like this, Indecisive, Memento Mori, Friends, Dont Be Mad, Convergence, Control, Obsolete, Irae, Lost in Sauce, or Placeholder get a say on whether or not they would choose either to hotfix the boss now or to wait until wednesday? No we didn’t. Big slap in the face if you ask me.

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Synced wanted the bugs to be fixed instantly and even give VG some tries while waiting and doing nothing. But no, that was not enough, Hagson insisted on having the bugs fixed on ID reset, which happens at a time where usually only one EU guild can organize the people for a naxx clear.
 
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More random stuff being thrown by you guys.

You know very well (or if you don't, then Marelle and Weasel should have told you) that we asked staff during the meeting to apply the changes in the evening, not at 6 AM. But Chero has been accused of favouritism and seems he decided to do it during the normal server reset after all in order to prove those accusations wrong.
 
I remember that ED raid we did before BWL release. That sure helped Vanguard clear up to Broodlord. The only aq raid vanguard did before release was in their head :D. They made it feel like we were back in school, pissed me off.
 
Amoonir said:
So why for KT when there are blatant bugs for the fight the decision is to wait until the next reset? We had to kill bugged anub and patchwerk and we didn't demand that they remain bugged until the next reset so other guilds have to struggle with a bugged encounter. I don’t see why KT should be any different.
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The difference is that all those bosses were killable, KT was not. Everyone killed the same bosses, except KT.


Chainsaw said:
Synced wanted the bugs to be fixed instantly and even give VG some tries while waiting and doing nothing. But no, that was not enough, Hagson insisted on having the bugs fixed on ID reset, which happens at a time where usually only one EU guild can organize the people for a naxx clear.
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More lies, I said I disliked both options and would prefer a third, but if I was forced to choose I would take the option of doing it at reset, instead of throwing away our 1h20m lead. Weasel said he had no preference, so at reset was chosen.



I shouldn't talk for Chero I suppose but I imagine the reason Risen wasn't invited was because you were nowhere near KT at the time.
 
So one hour into KT progression you knew all hose bugs already? Seems strange to invest the other 9-12 hrs into it then.
More likely you knew the overtuned damage then, not much more. If those are the only things it's not unkillable, that comes from stuff you found out later.
 
interesting how every version of the naxx story, which differs from the vg version of it, instantly gets called a lie by vg.
 
My opinion on this matter is 100% irrelevant, but from my point of view this "race" was never the race. My understanding of a race is that everyone starts on equal terms and those who are smartest, who can adapt to bugs, buff in dmg/hp and fuck ups faster than others, aka who can figure it out before anyone else while still clearing the content efficient enough wins at the end. Of course, that went down the toilet when I heard that Synced and VG are actually raiding Naxx for weeks (months?) already. This wasn't a race at who can figure it out faster, but actually speedrun contest of already very well trained content. If you were to figure out who of those 2 guilds is better at clearing the new content (Naxx), you would have to compare their first private PTR runs from long time ago which is of course impossible. This way VG won first speedrun race to FW Lair and gz for that. All this being said, imo true winners of Kronos Naxxramas are Risen, dudes never stepped foot inside Naxx elsewhere and they were first to figure it out and reach KT on fair terms and noone can claim they wouldn't be faster than VG or Synced if it was their first time in Naxx as well instead of just oneshotting every already very well trained boss - ggs for them.
 
Brezel said:
So one hour into KT progression you knew all hose bugs already? Seems strange to invest the other 9-12 hrs into it then.
More likely you knew the overtuned damage then, not much more. If those are the only things it's not unkillable, that comes from stuff you found out later.
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We knew about the abominations being bugged after our first pull, but as anyone else who got there figured out, that is fairly easily managable for an alliance guild. By the 2nd or 3rd try we knew about the overtuned stuff, and the hitbox issue. The mind control thing we figured out way later. In hindsight we probably even figured that out later than we should have tbh.
Some of the other changes that are now being implemented are things we assumed was intended changes and we hadn't had enough time experiencing them to realize how game breaking they really are.

From the way i understand it, and to be clear about this i wasn't present and i only got an edited version of events, it went something like this: When the discussion happened, the topic was about whether or not to fix abominations and the hitbox immediately or at server restart. It was everything anyone knew about at the time and these were the changes synced and vanguard were asked to take a stance on.

Firstly both were things that seemed trivial and easily managable so weren't worth restarting the server over.
Secondly if synced were really having so serious issues with these things, then why would we willingly give up our advantage in this regard. We had just spent an hour and a half trying KT, with much of that time being spent on trying to manage phase 1, and thus the abominations, well enough that we could get serious work done on phase 2, so if fixes happened immediately it would seem like that effort would be wasted.
Thirdly after our very first attempt we contacted GMs who told us that the abominations were working as intended and we'd just have to chainstun them. Which was the assumption we proceeded under. Getting told a couple of hours later that the stance was no longer that this was working as intended was somewhat of a let down.

The fact that horde would have a harder time dealing with the abominations were briefly discussed, but the concern that future bugs would necessarily have to be dealt with in the same manner as was chosen with these first few bugs were never really touched upon.
I dont think anyone was trying to screw anyone else over, but everyone was trying not to get screwed themselves.
 
Brezel said:
So one hour into KT progression you knew all hose bugs already? Seems strange to invest the other 9-12 hrs into it then.
More likely you knew the overtuned damage then, not much more. If those are the only things it's not unkillable, that comes from stuff you found out later.
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The issues discussed at the Discord meeting were Abominations ability damage and KT's hitbox.

We'd spent the last hour and a half stabilizing into Phase 2, so applying the changes to Abom/Hitbox right then and there would only benefit Synced who were still struggling in Phase 1. From a competitors standpoint, it made no sense for us to choose this option - we'd be giving away our lead.

If these were to be the only changes, making them for next reset was the most fair option of the two. The race was still on at this point.

In addition to managing Phase 1 perfectly, the things keeping us busy the next attempts was how to manage Frostbolt Volley healing and KT's Frostblast/Fissure/Frostbolt wombo-combos. These mechanics did not make him unkillable, but were difficult enough to hold our attention.

When we had our Phase 2 strategy down, we could stay alive longer and shift our attention to other things. This is when the MC threat reset bug became wildly apparent, and we could undoubtedly conclude that KT was unkillable unless this mechanic was fixed.

So on Sunday late afternoon, it dawned on everybody that we'd basically been live release testers for the past 10 hours, which accumulated to the fact that the Naxxramas Server First Race was, simply, fucked.
 
Yes, i understand that and carried enough of my own consumes to the KT grave. But there is still no reason to withhold these changes now for days on end, on a decision done by one guild to spite one other guild.

And the argument "he was unkillabe at that point" which is brought up by the person deciding this, is just not true and keeps us now days and days away from killing him. You mention the "race" and at the same time everyone says no one cares about the race anymore, and still people who never cared, are punished by this.

Do the Devs know more now then they did when the decision was done, thanks mostly to oyur testing yeah. Could that stuff been fixed when found out, or at least as quick as possible, yeah. But no, because of one guys illusions of grandeur, everyone has to wait now.
 
Brezel said:
Yes, i understand that and carried enough of my own consumes to the KT grave
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You were not forced into burning consumes on a boss you honestly believed was killable. VG, Synced and Risen were.

Brezel said:
But there is still no reason to withhold these changes now for days on end
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The initial set of changes proposed were futile and were not changes that would assist anyone's progress in anyway. Furthermore, changes then-and-there would have voided the already spent advantage Vg had gained in time, as Synced would be met with a nerfed KT on their second or-so pull, whereas it would be the 7th or-so for Vanguard.

As for "days on end", there was no second or further sets of changes proposed. We earnestly developed a strategy to survive the broken phase 1 on the premise that it was killable, and our discovery of the missing threat-dump mechanic was reported much later as a result. At this point, the GM's had commit to the decision Synced and Vg agreed upon in the meeting, and had no intention of accommodating more changes until the next lockout.

Brezel said:
And the argument "he was unkillabe at that point" which is brought up by the person deciding this, is just not true
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You misunderstand, the meeting wasn't created on the premise he was unkillable. It was formed because changes made then-and-there would have voided the advantage we had. We believed him to be killable albeit in a totally overtuned manner. The final decision he was unkillable came much later.

Take a moment to revise why the threat reset mechanic is important during the KT fight, and you will quickly understand that without it, KT exhausts your supply of tanks and their ability to catch-up in threat very quickly, meaning there is a hard-limit to the progress you can make into phase 2 before you run out of tanks.

Brezel said:
Do the Devs know more now then they did when the decision was done, thanks mostly to oyur testing yeah. Could that stuff been fixed when found out
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The testing should never have been necessary. As for the fixes being applied, the decision was made to defer them to the next lockout, and based on the sheer count of fixes required, this is the best decision imo. It's a shame getting KT fixed cost 3 guilds so many consumes.

I am grateful to my guild, Synced and Risen for their live-testing, as the bigger picture issue is that KT needed to be tested extensively. Thanks to our collective live-testing, we made considerable progress in convincing the devs how and why to actually let KT be killable.
 
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yungu said:
The initial set of changes proposed were futile and were not changes that would assist anyone's progress in anyway. Furthermore, changes then-and-there would have voided the already spent advantage Vg had gained in time, as Synced would be met with a nerfed KT on their second pull, whereas it would be the 7th or-so for Vanguard.
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#1 By the time a fix was offered, we had already found a way to deal with the abominations. That was no rocket science.
#2 You are right in that the offered fixes would have changed little about the encounter, but subsequent changes could have been made throughout the night. That would obviously not have been the ideal solution, but in the face of a bugged encounter, probably the fairest. The only reason it was not done like that was Hagson's insistence on keeping the hour you gained by lucking out on the ice blocks.

yungu said:
The testing should never have been necessary.
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At least there is one thing we can all agree on.
 
You seem to be under the impression that Vanguard are the ones who made the decision to keep every change from coming live until next reset.

We were asked our preference on hotfixing Abom/Hitbox, nothing more, at a point in time where the only 'everyone' who were relevant were people at KT, meaning Synced and Vanguard.

If the changes had been applied after they'd been discovered on Sunday, all the competing guilds could probably have killed him that same night, but the GMs didn't, so here we are. If they had gone live Monday or even today, there wouldn't be further attempts from Vanguard, and I don't imagine from Synced or Risen either, until the next scheduled raid day.

It's just progression now, and with hopefully a killable KT.
 
Naice said:
The only reason it was not done like that was Hagson's insistence on keeping the hour you gained by lucking out on the ice blocks.
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Hagson's pushed for a 3rd option that the GMs were unwilling to accommodate. He chose the lesser of two evils, which allowed us to throw ourselves at the same boss for a few hours as would be fair, and discover the numerous fixes required. In addition, remember that this was a discussion your party had just as much say in, but for some reason abstained from. At the time, it was our honest belief that the 1h 20m advantage we had gained was the result of your strategic failure - not bugs. Your posts about the bugged blocks came much later than the meeting. In the meeting, Marelle alluded to your wipes being the product of bad strategy, and to my knowledge bugs were a second-thought if they were even mentioned at this time.

I'm sorry you feel this is a personal attack, but the real antagonists in this circumstance were the devs for creating this mess in the first place.

As to your actual misfortune on Sapphiron, I cannot comment. Some said it was strategic failure, others say it was bugs. People talk. I guess we can decide that when we see full footage.
 
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yungu said:
As to your actual misfortune on Sapphiron, I cannot comment. Some said it was strategic failure, others say it was bugs. People talk. I guess we can decide that when we see full footage.
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The bugs did not appear (or only to a much lesser degree) under certain circumstances. We found out what those were, otherwise we would not have killed them. That's what Marelle meant when he talked about a failed strategy. You obviously went in right away with the one strategy that worked. We had planned on another strategy, which gave us full exposure on the bugs.

So Marelle talking about bad strategy and the bugs having been there are not exclusive of one another.
 
Part of the responsibly for this debacle are those in the community who called for a custom Naxx; which is many of the people currently complaining. Instead of having a set of values that were extensively researched and tested by Blizzard you asked for the Kronos developers to "custom tune" as they see fit. The time spent tweaking all the trash and bosses so it's more difficult could have been time otherwise spent fixing actual bugs.
 
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