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Other How important is it really to have a perfectly optimized group when raiding

Vesc

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#26
Just dont expect getting into a hardcore guild if you're playing a shitty spec
Lost case. Pointless. lol.

- - - Updated - - -

Just like raiding without consumables is harder, and raiding with only one hand is harder.

in a "serious" guild why would you drag them down with your offspecc. You are dragging others down.

The dps increase is not irrelevant. It will help a lot against "gear check" bosses such as vael.
:trollface: ... I'm out. lg
 
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Lharts

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#27
@Vesc you are running in circles here.

Play a spec that is not 100% suited for raiding -> you have fun -> 39 others suffer

If you are cool with that and your raid is cool with that, lucky you.
 

Fact

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#28
If this is true then your guilds healers sucked. Badly.
That was the point. We cleared MC, Onyxia, ZG and were on our way in BWL sucking and beating the hardest encounter at the time in WoW with a lvl 58 pulling our healing team. Apparently the other 39 people in our raid suffered because of this... :rolleyes2: Vanilla wasn't hard even though people usually parrot otherwise, we players weren't just as good back then. If you've actually raided in vanilla, instead in vanilla private servers, you know this. They just don't compare, and I'm not talking about broken mechanics.

I just hate this instant gratification WotLK mentality that seeped over here. People cry offspecs slow down our raid if we kill molten destroyers in 33 secs instead of 30 secs. One phone call to MT or raid leader, or one emergency bathroom break, or one funny joke on vent, or *gasp* a personal failure resulting in a near-wipe, and the time your pure cookie cutter raid managed to save is thrown away.

You are walking to already decked table. You have the knowledge of 10 years of encounters. You have all the experience of addons and UI building. You actually know which loot benefits you. You know to use your gold on buff potions instead of noggenfogger and deviates. No matter what the raid composition is, you WILL run and clear raids faster than the people did 10 years ago. And yet nothing is enough for you spoiled brats?

If someone is still too dense to understand, I also give up.
 
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jorim

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#29
That was the point. We cleared MC, Onyxia, ZG and were on our way in BWL sucking and beating the hardest encounter at the time in WoW with a lvl 58 pulling our healing team. Apparently the other 39 people in our raid suffered because of this... :rolleyes2: Vanilla wasn't hard even though people usually parrot otherwise, we players weren't just as good back then. If you've actually raided in vanilla, instead in vanilla private servers, you know this. They just don't compare, and I'm not talking about broken mechanics.

I just hate this instant gratification WotLK mentality that seeped over here. People cry offspecs slow down our raid if we kill molten destroyers in 33 secs instead of 30 secs. One phone call to MT or raid leader, or one emergency bathroom break, or one funny joke on vent, or *gasp* a personal failure resulting in a near-wipe, and the time your pure cookie cutter raid managed to save is thrown away.

You are walking to already decked table. You have the knowledge of 10 years of encounters. You have all the experience of addons and UI building. You actually know which loot benefits you. You know to use your gold on buff potions instead of noggenfogger and deviates. No matter what the raid composition is, you WILL run and clear raids faster than the people did 10 years ago. And yet nothing is enough for you spoiled brats?

If someone is still too dense to understand, I also give up.
Quoted for truth.

I don't mind funny specs, but you can't deny the mana problems they will endure. And if you go and upwards it really starts to matter that your spec is at its best.
 

indaco

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#30
I dont see why not let someone run an offspec if is prepared enought , off course is ****** bring a weak class but if the player is good , it have consumable and he know is shit i will take it over a random warlock all day.

cleary you cant really have 5 moonkin 5 feral 5 retri pala but one of each or few is ok , IF the player is good
 

Hagson

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#31
... I'm out. lg
And yet you didn't counter a single point. You're out of arguments so you call others trolls and bail? Sounds like a good way to win an argument.


And yet nothing is enough for you spoiled brats?
Trying to clear raids in an efficient, fast and smooth manner = being a spoiled brat?

Like I said in the post you quoted, if you're in a casual guild that doesnt care about content being cleared slower then go for it, but bear in mind you are draggin others down (unless they are worse than you ofc).

If you want to join a "serious" guild don't have any delusions about ret palas or feral druids.
 

Vesc

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#32
Sup Hagson.

Sorry, but if you don't see the the redundancy between your last post and what some others, including me, pointed out MULTIPLE times in this thread, then there is simply nothing to argue about.

"Win an argument", "serious guilds", "casuals" - oh boy. :)

Damn, gotta win dem arguments on the interwebz mang. Especially those about cruise control on 10 year old content. Gotta ensure dat smooth sailing as we dont have any second to waste, right.



Even though I repeated myself countless times in this thread already, phrasing the same message in various ways, multiple times. Just as others did..

Seems like we will need to reach a magical number of those posts to have effect. The resistances in this thread might partially be even worse than those of MC mobs to fire.

Whatever.

Oh, by the way, would you care about sharing your definition of casual and why exactly you think that does not mix up with ambition and steady progression, while arguably not the fastest, if you enjoy counting the seconds. :)

And did you notice the other scenario I pointed out in multiple posts about having no offspecs within the raid?

What do You believe was the message I tried to bring across?

Maybe with this odd approach... :p

Ah, right, for the sake of argument, let me do the same thing I asked of you.

Your point pretty much sums up to: You can bring offspecs, it wont be the fastest possible (even tho you might be delusional about how much longer it would take, Hagson.) but if you are a "casual" you dont give a shit about that anyways, riiiight?

Lg
 
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Lharts

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#33
Your argument that the content is 10y old is actually the best argument against running offspecs.
After 10y you should know whats best.

In my experience every guild had that one guy (at least one) who always thought he was special and should be allowed to run a bad raid spec.
Others arround you spend alot gold on respeccing, try to help the raid as much as they can and you just go ahead and do what ever you like? That sounds like the definition of a spoiled brat.

And to the argument about consumables. If you only take consumables to cover up your shit spec then you missed the point. Put in the same amount of effort, run an appropriate spec then you'll do way better and be of way more help.
 

Fact

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#34
Trying to clear raids in an efficient, fast and smooth manner = being a spoiled brat?

Like I said in the post you quoted, if you're in a casual guild that doesnt care about content being cleared slower then go for it, but bear in mind you are draggin others down (unless they are worse than you ofc).

If you want to join a "serious" guild don't have any delusions about ret palas or feral druids.
Yep that's spot-on definition. Spoiled since you aren't willing to do compromise on things you haven't control over (how people play, how people don't mind how others play) and can't be content on loot and progression rules unless it's EXACTLY what YOU want with YOUR utilitarianist dogma.

Brat since you obviously never did the content when it ACTUALLY took time. Oh no, I'm not talking about how our crap specced players killed things more slowly resulting in slower full instance clear times since day one *baawwwwww*. I'm talking about how our crap players kept pulling the imps, had incredible trouble killing hounds at the same time and downed Magmadar after a month of first encountering it. Month, that's like 4 MC clears, talk about inefficiency!

The individual player skill/dedication/ISP/luck/working hours/family/pet/wife-beating neighbour/toothache/last dinner/whatever trumps over anything perceived efficiency you think you will get with specs. Of course next you say "I agree that's what I said but 40 skilled players with right specs will be even faster than 40 skilled people with bad specs durrrrrrrrr!". How in the hell are you going to measure that? How in the hell are you going to ensure that will happen?

Everything you say about efficiency is purely hypothetical viewpoint. Any efficiency (what does it even mean?) doesn't just magically happen. You can start talking about it when you've played enough with the same people and know them. And practised with them. Then you have a foundation what you can start tinkering with efficient routines and specs and whatnot which will give you more time to sit in front of AH. Though this mentality mainly only applies to the world first circle jerk guild style. They can have it, but I think OP wasn't asking for that. Vast majority of guilds (which is your definition of casual?) need not to worry because there is just so much breathing room and what-ifs in reality.

Your argument that the content is 10y old is actually the best argument against running offspecs.
After 10y you should know whats best.
That is a truth I agree. Though, you know after 10 years, along with the other things we've brought up over and over again, that is so ignisificant point which won't affect raids success rate or speed. It didn't affect back then from different reasons, it does not affect now for other reasons.

In my experience every guild had that one guy (at least one) who always thought he was special and should be allowed to run a bad raid spec.
Others arround you spend alot gold on respeccing, try to help the raid as much as they can and you just go ahead and do what ever you like? That sounds like the definition of a spoiled brat.
Yeah he's spoiled if the other players in the raid hold the same view as you, and he agreed on that. Which, I assure, is very unlikely. Stop projecting your thoughts on other people. He may kill stuff slower, but damn you kill mood faster.
 

Hagson

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#35
Sup Hagson.

Sorry, but if you don't see the the redundancy between your last post and what some others, including me, pointed out MULTIPLE times in this thread, then there is simply nothing to argue about.
I believe we are talking from different point of views. I'm talking about a "serious" guild that attempts to get fast fast clears, you are talking about a more "casual" guild where that is not important. Ill define these terms later.

"Win an argument", "serious guilds", "casuals" - oh boy. :)
What's wrong with this terminology?

Damn, gotta win dem arguments on the interwebz mang. Especially those about cruise control on 10 year old content. Gotta ensure dat smooth sailing as we dont have any second to waste, right.
Where there is room to improve I see no reason not to improve. I guess that sets us apart.

Oh, by the way, would you care about sharing your definition of casual and why exactly you think that does not mix up with ambition and steady progression, while arguably not the fastest, if you enjoy counting the seconds. :)
Sure!
A "casual" or "softcore" guild is a guild where that does some content (PvP, PvE, RP, leveling) in a casual manner. That is, less focus on speed, performance and optimization and more focus on bringing everyone along for the run. The enjoyment stems from doing the content in a way they like, having a laugh along they way while not taking things too seriously.
A "serious" or "hardcore" guild is a guild where the focus is on not only managing the content, but to do it in a fast or efficient way. A lot of focus on everything being optimal, and the guild members having a high attendance on the (usually) scheduled PvE, PvP or RP events. The enjoyment stems from doing something dificult in a "good" way. "Good" may mean clearing a dungeon fast, not having anyone die, or win 10 WSGs in a row without losing.

Therefore a non-ideal specc, such as a feral druid, does not fit with the ideology of the "serious" guilds, but would probably not have any problems in the "casual" guilds. Please not that my examples are, for claritys sake, two extremes, and there will be plenty of middle ground.
I hope that made things clearer.[/QUOTE]

And did you notice the other scenario I pointed out in multiple posts about having no offspecs within the raid?
This argument is flawed. If you accept that an offspecc is in any way inferior to a "regular" specc then why bring any in the first place, not to mention several. This is, of course, from the perspective of a "serious" guild.

Your point pretty much sums up to: You can bring offspecs, it wont be the fastest possible (even tho you might be delusional about how much longer it would take, Hagson.) but if you are a "casual" you dont give a shit about that anyways, riiiight?
Basically, yes. A "casual" guild can still care about cleartimes, but they more often that "serious" guild not enough to deny the offspecc a spot for simply being an offspecc.






Yep that's spot-on definition. Spoiled since you aren't willing to do compromise on things you haven't control over (how people play, how people don't mind how others play) and can't be content on loot and progression rules unless it's EXACTLY what YOU want with YOUR utilitarianist dogma.
I didn't realise the raidleader didn't have control over the roster and was forced to invite offspecs. The more you know. (My point is that I do have control over how people play, at least to some extent.)


Brat since you obviously never did the content when it ACTUALLY took time. Oh no, I'm not talking about how our crap specced players killed things more slowly resulting in slower full instance clear times since day one *baawwwwww*. I'm talking about how our crap players kept pulling the imps, had incredible trouble killing hounds at the same time and downed Magmadar after a month of first encountering it. Month, that's like 4 MC clears, talk about inefficiency!
Being an offspecc does not mean you are more skilled. Being a "regular" specc does not mean you are less skilled. Of course you wouldnt pick a drooling retarded of a rogue over a skilled moonkin, but in the choice between two equally skilled players playing a rogue and a moonkin I'd always pick the rogue. (Unless there was a very special scenario, such as no other druids in the raid.)

I don't agree with this definition btw, Lharts had a better one.

The individual player skill/dedication/ISP/luck/working hours/family/pet/wife-beating neighbour/toothache/last dinner/whatever trumps over anything perceived efficiency you think you will get with specs. Of course next you say "I agree that's what I said but 40 skilled players with right specs will be even faster than 40 skilled people with bad specs durrrrrrrrr!". How in the hell are you going to measure that? How in the hell are you going to ensure that will happen?
While this is sometimes true, I believe you underestimate the difference between a "proper" specc and an "offspecc". As to the question of how I will measure that, have you heard of DPS-meters? You can also time the runs easily. And yes, a raid leader will always know what could be done better or why the run wasn't as fast as could be. This is speaking from the perspective of a "serious" guild.

Everything you say about efficiency is purely hypothetical viewpoint. Any efficiency (what does it even mean?) doesn't just magically happen. You can start talking about it when you've played enough with the same people and know them. And practised with them. Then you have a foundation what you can start tinkering with efficient routines and specs and whatnot which will give you more time to sit in front of AH. Though this mentality mainly only applies to the world first circle jerk guild style.
Efficieny can mean faster clear times, less deaths etc. etc.
When I've played and practived with the same people and know them? So when the guild members have passed the trial stage? That takes a few weeks.

If "first world circle jerk guild" is the same as "guild that cares about clear speeds and/or performance" then more guild that you'd like to think are "first world circle jerk guilds".

They can have it, but I think OP wasn't asking for that. Vast majority of guilds (which is your definition of casual?) need not to worry because there is just so much breathing room and what-ifs in reality.
I posted my definition earlier in this post.
OP didn't specify what guild he wanted to join, and I have always been speaking from the perspective of a "serious" guild and I have been open about that. I never claimed a casual guild would deny all offspeccs for being offspeccs, though I dont see that being impossible or even improbable.

That is a truth I agree. Though, you know after 10 years, along with the other things we've brought up over and over again, that is so ignisificant point which won't affect raids success rate or speed. It didn't affect back then from different reasons, it does not affect now for other reasons.
I disagree. Less DPS from a suboptimal specc means longer clears times, possibly means more deaths, possibly means failure against "gear check" bosses. It does affect the raid, it might not make or break it, but denying that it affects it is being delusional.

The points asdasd





Another enormous post. Why does it keep happening?



Edit: This is how wiktionary defines the adjective "casual":
[h=3]Adjective[/h] casual (comparative more casual, superlative most casual)

  1. Happening by chance.  [quotations ▼] They only had casual meetings.
  2. Coming without regularity; occasional or incidental.  [quotations ▼] The purchase of donuts was just a casual expense.
  3. Employed irregularly.  [quotations ▼] He was just a casual worker.
  4. Careless.  [quotations ▼]
  5. Happening or coming to pass without design.  [quotations ▼]
  6. Informal, relaxed.
  7. Designed for informal or everyday use
The points that apply most to this specific scenario are 1., 2. (A casual PvP guild might only PvP whenever enough people are online, rather than scheduling.) and 6. (A casual PvE guild is often more relaxed (less focus on maximum performance and clear times, more forgiving against mistakes) and more informal (no need for perfect specs or full consumables).
 
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Qiyn

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#36
I thought i raid led a casual guild on ED. Thanks for the link to the definition of casual Hagson. Even though i allowed spriests, retpals, feral druids, and what not in my raid, the definition you provided showed our raids were not casual at all! Except for the raids being cancelled due to horrible lag, they came without irregularity. They definitely did not happen by chance, as they were scheduled at the same time every week. We had our fun, but we had our formal structure.
 

Aieris

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#37
But that is YOUR problem as a Raid Leader. Nobody tells you, that you can't do that. He only tells you that realy serious guilds try to min-max their members performance.

I remember TBC, where top guilds brought mages to SWP only for trash CCs and at boss they replaced them just because their DPS was a bit lower than other classes. They also have been progressing it for more than 8 hours per day. That's what i call hardcore raiding.
 

Qiyn

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#38
I am really sorry for picking on you today, Aieris. I do not disagree that casual, in the WoW sense of the term, describes my guild. I, myself, use the term casual to describe my old guild. What i am pointing out is that the definition from Wiktionary goes against what Hagson is trying to argue for.
 

Fact

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#39
Are we going to bring TBC into this now lol? Vanilla boss mechanics are joke compared to later expansions. Especially compared to TBC. Guilds operated on a completely different premises. This class switching wasn't widespread in vanilla. Nor after TBC. You can't use the type of guilds - in which most likely every single person in the forum has never been part of - as an argument. Period. End of story.

Hagson is arguing over theoretical points in his perfect isolated wow laboratory. He is technically correct in his quest of splitting hairs for the sake of it if all the stars are aligned and gods wills it.

Funny how it's the raid leader who will screen the raiders and analyze your raid performance. It's always some other guy who does these things. The things ten years have done, people even take leadership for granted... I don't see you picking the people and leading a "serious raid guild". Nor volunteering to maintain the raids DPS spreadsheets to squeeze every bit of your precious second saving efficiency. You prefer the easy way of entering in an already cleared instance and yelling empty slogans behind the ranks. Picking the correct spec is the least you can do with your "serious guild", yet it entitles you with a false sense of smugness. Every guild cares about clear speeds and/or performance, you couldn't have picked a broader term possible.

I see I'm arguing from an obsolete old geezer point of view some here can't relate to. No matter how we do things here, ANYTHING goes faster compared how I used to run things back then. It gives leverage to do things even more half-assed this time. My perception is tinted by this. Now add the fact the server may be 1.12 but the players are 6.something. Shit, 1.12 is the easy mode version of vanilla if you count the last month or two with the TBC patch out. You were born with a silver fork jammed in your ass you can't even probe with a giant metal detector dildo. I just can't sympathize with your speed mongering.

All I can say to OP: You and your whole raid can be whatever specs you want it won't cause problems. Just for the sake of it if guild advertises certain specs only, don't join it.

Same goes the other way: Just keep your thoughts about pure specs to yourself in your future guild unless it's written in the rules. It might come with a community cost on an already small server. It certainly comes with an enjoyment cost. People in retail had the luxury of manpower.
 

Hagson

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#40
I know of that guild Qiyn, I was in it :O

You fail to notice that that wiktionary lists several things that are called casual. Having scheduled raids wouldn't make you not fill the "sporadic" criteria, but you could still have a "6. Informal, relaxed." raid, where people not bringing consumables or playing suboptimal speccs would be allowed.

I would classify that guild as casual due to the informal and relaxed nature. There was, for example, little to no demand that you actually attended a high percentage of the scheduled raids, thus making them at least somewhat sporadic, even if the time and place isnt.
 

Qiyn

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#41
I know of that guild Qiyn, I was in it :O
Who were you? I am curious now!

You fail to notice that that wiktionary lists several things that are called casual. Having scheduled raids wouldn't make you not fill the "sporadic" criteria, but you could still have a "6. Informal, relaxed." raid, where people not bringing consumables or playing suboptimal speccs would be allowed.

I would classify that guild as casual due to the informal and relaxed nature. There was, for example, little to no demand that you actually attended a high percentage of the scheduled raids, thus making them at least somewhat sporadic, even if the time and place isnt.
I do not think that playing a suboptimal spec constitutes informality of the raid alone. For example, i could have enforced a strict policy of having to wear the guild tabard in order to raid. In this case, the guild is not casual, according to Wiktionary (ugh, why does this program recognize Wiktionary when capitalized, but not words like tabard?), because that is a formal rule. I do agree that the guild will be casual if the attendance policy is not enforced.

Could you imagine a raiding guild that does not require you to be of the 'right' (whatever that means) spec and bring tons of consumables to progression raids. But they are considered hardcore because they require your gear to match! And of course, the attendance policy is strict.
 

Hagson

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#42
I do not think that playing a suboptimal spec constitutes informality of the raid alone. For example, i could have enforced a strict policy of having to wear the guild tabard in order to raid. In this case, the guild is not casual, according to Wiktionary (ugh, why does this program recognize Wiktionary when capitalized, but not words like tabard?), because that is a formal rule. I do agree that the guild will be casual if the attendance policy is not enforced.

Could you imagine a raiding guild that does not require you to be of the 'right' (whatever that means) spec and bring tons of consumables to progression raids. But they are considered hardcore because they require your gear to match! And of course, the attendance policy is strict.
Now you are just stretching things for no real reason.
Such a guild would be described as "hardcore when it comes to matching gear, but casual when it comes to speccs and consumables". It would be hard to label the entire guild as one or the other. This discussion is kind of pointless though, since we're just discussing terminology and stretching it to extremes which will never happen.
 

nimeralos

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#43
Qiyn, aren't you gonna lead such a guild here? I'm not going to play for "unnecessary" spec, but I'd gladly entered a guild which allows it. Game means fun, online game means fun with other people, not some crappy aggressive dick-metering. For me of course. We have enough competitions, systems etc. in the real life :)
 

lelebron

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#44
@Vesc you are running in circles here.

Play a spec that is not 100% suited for raiding -> you have fun -> 39 others suffer

If you are cool with that and your raid is cool with that, lucky you.
Based on what math?

Lets say Im also in the raid, the numbers are off right away.
 

lelebron

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#45
Such a guild would be described as "hardcore when it comes to matching gear, but casual when it comes to speccs and consumables". It would be hard to label the entire guild as one or the other. This discussion is kind of pointless though, since we're just discussing terminology and stretching it to extremes which will never happen.
Also how hardcrore can you go in a game thats been beaten countless of times. Of course mentally you can go and feel as hardcore you like and maybe the server first (propably from a pool of players between 500-1500) is being concidered as hardcore.

If you really are as hardcore as you say, you go into your addons and turn KTM and all dps/threat meters off and then go for server first. That would be amazing, server first with addons on a content thats been done cuontless of times the past 10 years isnt a really a hardcore feat..
 
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#46
Also how hardcrore can you go in a game thats been beaten countless of times. Of course mentally you can go and feel as hardcore you like and maybe the server first (propably from a pool of players between 500-1500) is being concidered as hardcore.

If you really are as hardcore as you say, you go into your addons and turn KTM and all dps/threat meters off and then go for server first. That would be amazing, server first with addons on a content thats been done cuontless of times the past 10 years isnt a really a hardcore feat..
pretty much all addons I've ever used for PvE were OmniCC and a dps meter and it really isn't any harder. People overestimate addons.
 

Qiyn

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#47
Qiyn, aren't you gonna lead such a guild here? I'm not going to play for "unnecessary" spec, but I'd gladly entered a guild which allows it. Game means fun, online game means fun with other people, not some crappy aggressive dick-metering. For me of course. We have enough competitions, systems etc. in the real life :)
I might. I haven't fully decided if i will play on Kronos, yet. It sounds like this server is an ED-clone. While ED had a lot of good things, they had a lot of things i wish they did differently. Namely, raiding was not done well on ED. My super 'casual' (my definition, not Hagson's) guild beat Nefarian in four attempts. Without the struggle, it took all the fun away from that fight.

On top of that, patch 1.11-1.12 was a dark time for all of WoW.
 

Hagson

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#48
Also how hardcrore can you go in a game thats been beaten countless of times. Of course mentally you can go and feel as hardcore you like and maybe the server first (propably from a pool of players between 500-1500) is being concidered as hardcore.

If you really are as hardcore as you say, you go into your addons and turn KTM and all dps/threat meters off and then go for server first. That would be amazing, server first with addons on a content thats been done cuontless of times the past 10 years isnt a really a hardcore feat..
Except for server firsts or simply clearing content you can also try speedruns or running the content with fewer than intended members. There is stil plenty of "hardcore" stuff to do. Doing it without addons would also be interesting.


I might. I haven't fully decided if i will play on Kronos, yet. It sounds like this server is an ED-clone. While ED had a lot of good things, they had a lot of things i wish they did differently. Namely, raiding was not done well on ED. My super 'casual' (my definition, not Hagson's) guild beat Nefarian in four attempts. Without the struggle, it took all the fun away from that fight.

On top of that, patch 1.11-1.12 was a dark time for all of WoW.
If what you say about the guild is true then I was not a part of that guild. The guild I was speaking of that had a raid leader named Qiyn broke up after some time of attempting to kill Broodlord and struggling with proper attendance and in the end a failed merger.

If you speak of LGW (I didn't know you led them) I know very little about them.
 

Qiyn

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#49
]If what you say about the guild is true then I was not a part of that guild. The guild I was speaking of that had a raid leader named Qiyn broke up after some time of attempting to kill Broodlord and struggling with proper attendance and in the end a failed merger.

If you speak of LGW (I didn't know you led them) I know very little about them.
I did raid lead The Vidya, but i do not know of this failed merger you speak of. Never led let's get weird. But i joined that guild when i briefly came back to that server. I stopped playing on ED thirty minutes after we killed Nefarian, because of how piss poor Feenix released Blackwing Lair.

We suffered through a lot of bugs on the first three bosses while we were attempting Broodlord Lashlayer. Bugs, i was surprisingly fine with. We suffered through a lot of bugs in Molten Core (not as much as BWL). It made the content more challenging, in a way. The problem with bugless (or near bugless) Nefarian was way too easy. I did not feel that sense of accomplishment.
 
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