Information Warlock Summoning

[Peasemold]

How the whole "ordinary" playerbase was affected negatively by the old limit is still beyond me.

How long has CORAL been a hardcore guild? When did you guys make the switch?

 

[Aurigon]

Certainly the problem is more complex than what it appears at a quick glance. I don't know, I can only imagine two possible solutions:

1) Removing any level limitation, yet making so that the summon ability is somehow IP bound (that is, you can have as many warlock characters as you want on as many accounts, yet only one will have the ability available through an IP lock of some sort - I remember Feenix using IP locks as a security measure, maybe something like that could be reworked and implemented to this purpose here);

2) Making the current level limit even more strict, so that warlocks cannot summon higher level characters than themselves (that is, you can only summon a level 60 character with a level 60 warlock). Too hardcore maybe? Don't know really... if we can accept a character AH for normally leveled toons, maybe we can accept that as well.

Also, let's drop the guild war thing... whatever each of us believes, the staff has proven to take an interest into things other projects wouldn't give a damn about, so let's be propositional if we're to help them (help ourselves).

 

[Peasemold]

Also, let's drop the guild war thing... whatever each of us believes, the staff has proven to take an interest into things other projects wouldn't give a damn about, so let's be propositional if we're to help them (help ourselves).

Wasn't us that started accusing other guilds of being in cahoots with GMs and what not but point taken.

 

[Barrikade]

How long has CORAL been a hardcore guild? When did you guys make the switch?

As cleverly thought out as your post was (and good job sticking to the issue!) , put your biases aside for a second, and ask the same question I am. If summoning for raids won't be affected (which they won't), what purpose does this change have, and who will benefit from it? I am all for changing things for the better, but this doesn't help anyone or the server, just hinders those who want world buffs for raid. Is it worth alienating sections of the population to alleviate whining that "(s)hehas a summon alt and I didn't level one "?

 

[Peasemold]

As cleverly thought out as your post was (and good job sticking to the issue!) , put your biases aside for a second, and ask the same question I am. If summoning for raids won't be affected (which they won't), what purpose does this change have, and who will benefit from it? I am all for changing things for the better, but this doesn't help anyone or the server, just hinders those who want world buffs for raid. Is it worth alienating sections of the population to alleviate whining that "(s)hehas a summon alt and I didn't level one "?

We fully world buff our entire raid for speed runs and the people that want them for normal raids without the use of summoning alts or even summons from level 60 warlocks. Edit: Ask Ned, he's tried to gank us one at a time in Felwood only to be met by a raid.

Sorry if I don't see your point.

 

[tristan]

hahaha, this one actually made me laugh very hard because that image is from a stupid TV show from my country :lol:

I see, from that point of view it sucks.
Anyway, they said they dont want to stop self summoning completely. All they want is to make it in a way that ppl dont self summon for every little bullshit. Making it “harder“ just make people think twice before making additional accounts. It also means that people have to choose the location of the summon alt more carefully.

^This. Don't lose focus: staff clearly said they are NOT against the ability to summon yourself with warlock alts, they just want to measure it to resemble the level of usage as it was in blizzard back then (because of the obvius pay wall). It's logical that the needed level increase will surely reduce the amount of warlock alts around the world because the effort to have those alts is greatly increased.

1) Removing any level limitation, yet making so that the summon ability is somehow IP bound (that is, you can have as many warlock characters as you want on as many accounts, yet only one will have the ability available through an IP lock of some sort - I remember Feenix using IP locks as a security measure, maybe something like that could be reworked and implemented to this purpose here);

2) Making the current level limit even more strict, so that warlocks cannot summon higher level characters than themselves (that is, you can only summon a level 60 character with a level 60 warlock). Too hardcore maybe? Don't know really... if we can accept a character AH for normally leveled toons, maybe we can accept that as well.

1) This can be skipped easily if you manage to have dynamic IP address. Not a good solution.
2) This would hurt the gameplay of leveling people, who shouldn't feel affected by this.

The most straightforward, effortless solution that would affect the least amount of players is to decrease the Level gap from 15 to 5, and require characters able to assist the summon to be no more than 5 Levels lower than the Warlock himself. I.e. Only a Level 55 Warlock with assistance from 2 Level 50s would be able to summon a Level 60 Character. Regular players would barely feel it, when they group up for Dungeons, the gaps between them are rarely larger than 5 Levels, and, when that is the case, players will deal with it by walking & riding just as if Warlocks were not in the party.

I think, as Dalloway said, that the best solution is to make a level restriction for assisting people (clickers) to make a summon effective. This should make the final barrier for abusing this mechanic, but the numbers should be worked carefully. You have to make it so they are good restriction for summoning alts (so you need a really huge effort to make alt clickers all around the world), and at the same time don't hurt the gameplay of leveling players. This should be determined by analizing various numbres, such as miniumum level requierements to enter dungeons, recommended level to those dungeons, and usual level differences between people in groups for those dungeons.
The first numbers that come to my mind, is mantain the 15 level difference between warlock and summon target, and apply the same restriction to clicking chars, so you will need 3 level 45 to make the summon effective. Well that's just my thoughts, theyt can probably be improved.

 

[Muneca]

What Hagson means is that everybody could level summon alts before if they wanted and have the same chance on world bosses as we do. Since they are 'banned', on the Azuregos encounter Horde has a considerable advantage since Orgrimmar is 1 Flight Path away from Azshara.

And Lord Kazzak is a million miles away from the nearest Horde City, giving us a considerable advantage....

 

[tekai]

a) Difference in levels between summoner and summoned player creates additional cooldown? Like a 20 summoning a 20 wouldn't add cooldown but a 20 summoning a 60 would get 40 minutes? But then they would summon a 60 and then summon the other characters.

b) When over 5 warlocks are in a 100 yards range in specific zones and offline for over 60 minutes then they will be teleported to the nearest hearth? But then leveling players could be hit by it, some would find it wierd to be teleported and summoners could summon from the inns.

Side note : If a guild has summoners everywhere, it means other guilds that want to compete must have just as many. Either it escalates to huge amounts of summoners, or a single guild gets monopoly.

 

[Lyandri]

This has gone too far. We need the Kronos team to tell us exactly where they stand on this matter. Do you only want summon locks that help people get world bosses faster gone from the game or summon locks in general? Better make up your mind quick and let us know, because applying that level cap is clearly not a solution. It will only make the gameplay experience less Blizzlike and less enjoyable overall. For example, a leveling Warlock will not be able to quickly call their 60 friend for help in order to boost an elite quest or a low level dungeon etc. I can understand banning world boss summon locks, since it is a form of very immediate competition, but banning summon locks for world buffs such as Dire Maul:North, Songflower in Felwood etc. or just any place that doesn't involve securing world boss kills, makes no sense to me at all. As a member of <Vanguard> myself, I too enjoyed getting Azuregos within 5 mins of it spawning, but this concept seems to be evaporating with the recent changes. However, this is not the end of the so called "hardcore PvE". People should be allowed to log their main characters out in world boss spawn points and spy with them; this does not have a time consuming pre-requisite like leveling a warlock to level 20, and should also enhance world boss contestation(?!You get what I mean) between guilds along with world PvP, which is something people would probably like to see more on the server we play in. Raids should also be able to summon people from far away when a warlock main character is able to summon as long as they participate in the boss fight (In order to prevent them from bending the rules.)

Anyway, I just wanted to provide this thread with something less salty for a change. Keep in mind the staff is consisted of human beings (I'd like to believe at least!:lol and they do make mistakes, much like you and me. I hope you take the time to consider what was mentioned here and start looking for a more permanent solution to this "problem" or "abuse" as many people call it. :smile:
Cheers!

 

[Peasemold]

People should be allowed to log their main characters out in world boss spawn points and spy with them; this does not have a time consuming pre-requisite like leveling a warlock to level 20, and should also enhance world boss contestation(?!You get what I mean) between guilds along with world PvP, which is something people would probably like to see more on the server we play in.

If every character I ever killed in Azshara while waiting for Azuregos to spawn was a max level I would be rank 14. I agree people should use their mains but within your own guild the preference is a level 1 night elf.

 

[Lyandri]

Pointing fingers will not help much I'm afraid

 

[Aurigon]

1) This can be skipped easily if you manage to have dynamic IP address. Not a good solution.

No it can't. The whole point of an IP lock is just to prevent the usage of dynamic IPs. You would only be able to use the ability from the same account, character AND physical machine.

Side note : If a guild has summoners everywhere, it means other guilds that want to compete must have just as many. Either it escalates to huge amounts of summoners, or a single guild gets monopoly.

That's exactly the point those who complain here fail at seeing.

So far, it would seem the best options would be either the aforesaid IP lock one, or this...

make a level restriction for assisting people (clickers) to make a summon effective. This should make the final barrier for abusing this mechanic, but the numbers should be worked carefully. You have to make it so they are good restriction for summoning alts (so you need a really huge effort to make alt clickers all around the world), and at the same time don't hurt the gameplay of leveling players. This should be determined by analizing various numbres, such as miniumum level requierements to enter dungeons, recommended level to those dungeons, and usual level differences between people in groups for those dungeons.

By the way, as a reference, this page from our site has all dungeons listed, along with the recommended level bracket (Level Range) and the level of mobs.

 

[Peasemold]

Pointing fingers will not help much I'm afraid

You seen Ermean's posts in this thread?

 

[tristan]

No it can't. The whole point of an IP lock is just to prevent the usage of dynamic IPs. You would only be able to use the ability from the same account, character AND physical machine.

The problem is that with many ISP out there in the world, you don't get to choose if you have dynamic IP address or not. So, you can't restrict that and therefore you can't control people doing it on purpose either. That's why it is not a good solution.

By the way, as a reference, this page from our site has all dungeons listed, along with the recommended level bracket (Level Range) and the level of mobs.

Thanks for the info, it should be helpful to analyze options.

 

[Akka]

No it can't. The whole point of an IP lock is just to prevent the usage of dynamic IPs. You would only be able to use the ability from the same account, character AND physical machine.

An IP is not locked to a single machine, and restricting account per player is both an exercice in futility and would affect everyone both considerably and negatively. This is a very, very, very bad idea.

 

[Aieris]

Guys, this discussion about IP is invalid. You can change your IP, you can change your MAC adress as well. There are providers that give you IP dynamicaly whenever you login, there are providers, that appear like 1 machine for others, but actualy have thousands of customers.. and all of them have the same IP outside the ISP network.

Just to mention, I personaly (if nothing changed) have the same IP as cca 1000 other users. Packets for me are sended to my ISP servers and there, they are distributed further.

EDIT: BTW, many of you still fail to see, that this level restriction is here to DECRASE popularity and numbers of summoning lock alts. Not to get rid of them.
As for the low level players wanting help of high level friend.. well, as a high level, you have all flyght paths over world and travel time from EPL to Silithus takes max 15 mins. That is not so bad for vanilla. And usualy, you have HS to main city from where it's max 10 minutes to nearly any place in the world.

 

[Muneca]

Hence why what I would suggest is to take into consideration the level range of regions where such abuses would happen, instead of the number of players responsible for them, because the level of a character is the best parameter which defines what said character would be actually, legitimately doing in a certain zone.

Very BAD idea. My lvl 19 (future twink, xp off) for example wanted to reach as many flightpaths as he could, that was a nice adventure, running through lvl 40+ area's trying to survive. He was very happy when he could rest in an INN after such an exciting trip! In your world he would arrive at the inn, barely alive, half eaten by crocolisks only to hear: 'sorry lad, you have to run back, you ain't old enough to stay her.' He's 19!

My lvl 5 Orc bank employee likes to stay in the Booty Bay Inn, they have good music and better beer... Not everybody is a seasoned adventurer... Those commoners with only a few expert levels should be welcome too!

 

[Horo]

Increasing the required level to summon targets will not change anything. Eventually the summoning alts are going to be lv 45 and then we're faced with the same problem. In the game of Go, the Ko rule is preventing such a situation.

Prohibiting low level characters from staying in high level zones for extended periods of time will not work. If warlock summoning alts are banned from Stranglethorn Vale for example, I'll just sit west of isle yojamba, on the part which is geographically attached to Westfall, where my character is allowed to stay, and summon myself to swim to the island to get the Spirit of Zandalar.

If I really want to utilize summoning warlocks, this change will not stop me. It's just a convenient way to punish people for riding the boundaries of what the game engine allows to happen, for example multiboxing.

That being said, I spent 15 hours to level my warlock from 1 to 20 because I leveled my character up "legitimately" so I could save a few minutes each week from not having to take a Darnassus portal and instead being able to summon myself to Felwood for the songflower.

But no worries - as already stated in an earlier post - I got a lv 60 warlock to summon myself wherever I want, and there is nothing you can - or are willing to - do against that.

Meanwhile, a low level dungeon group can't summon a lv 60 to help them get through the dungeon because of this change which doesn't even do anything to positively impact the game world, objectively speaking. It's not a solution.

 

[tristan]

Increasing the required level to summon targets will not change anything. Eventually the summoning alts are going to be lv 45 and then we're faced with the same problem. In the game of Go, the Ko rule is preventing such a situation.
...
If I really want to utilize summoning warlocks, this change will not stop me.

You still think that the staff want to "stop" this? Have you even read the thread? :yawn:
They want to REDUCE it to a blizzlike level.

 

[Rockmaster]

As cleverly thought out as your post was (and good job sticking to the issue!) , put your biases aside for a second, and ask the same question I am. If summoning for raids won't be affected (which they won't), what purpose does this change have, and who will benefit from it? I am all for changing things for the better, but this doesn't help anyone or the server, just hinders those who want world buffs for raid. Is it worth alienating sections of the population to alleviate whining that "(s)hehas a summon alt and I didn't level one "?

The problem was not that raiders had summon bots at raid buff locations. The problem was that alot of people had summon ots on every objective. Travaling normaly was almost gone (atleast for some people/guilds)

 

[Horo]

You still think that the staff want to "stop" this? Have you even read the thread? :yawn:
They want to REDUCE it to a blizzlike level.

I'll explain myself in such a way that even you can understand my post.

If I was the person which this change is supposed to harm, then it wouldn't deter me. On the contrary, I'd level up all my characters to 45 to match the new requirement, out of defiance alone.

The only way to stop this is to approach the select few who are the main catalysts of this escalation and find a peaceful solution.

 

[sworzeh]

You seen Ermean's posts in this thread?

Touche.

 

[Rockmaster]

^This. Don't lose focus: staff clearly said they are NOT against the ability to summon yourself with warlock alts, they just want to measure it to resemble the level of usage as it was in blizzard back then (because of the obvius pay wall). It's logical that the needed level increase will surely reduce the amount of warlock alts around the world because the effort to have those alts is greatly increased.

Exactly what i ment. It will reduce the number of summon bots (atleast for some time).

 

[sworzeh]

So basically with the new rules... Everyone with a buttload of warlocks really only needs a bunch of 20s, one 30, and one 45?

Nothing will change. I don't think there's a solution that keeps this blizzlike because people didn't have unlimited free accounts. You can't ban IP addresses because it doesn't work. Let's revert back to when level 20 summoners were fine pls.

 

[Rockmaster]

So basically with the new rules... Everyone with a buttload of warlocks really only needs a bunch of 20s, one 30, and one 45?

Nothing will change. I don't think there's a solution that keeps this blizzlike because people didn't have unlimited free accounts. You can't ban IP addresses because it doesn't work. Let's revert back to when level 20 summoners were fine pls.

It makes it much more time consuming with all those locks. Imagine the amount of shards you have to farm... and most zones the locks are in dont have the right mob lvl for them