And what about Onslaught? Are you really making up a hypothetical situation to throw dirt? We are a big part of the server, too, and this is a discussion FORUM. All should be encouraged to participate.
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And what about Onslaught? Are you really making up a hypothetical situation to throw dirt? We are a big part of the server, too, and this is a discussion FORUM. All should be encouraged to participate.
Dead on, this guy gets it. +5 dkp
What is the issue then? We only use 1, maybe 2 warlocks to summon raids. We summon locks first, then proceed to normal summoning. If the goal was to cut the number, it must be for another reason. As far as "Kronos' health and fairness" I don't see an issue, except maybe some people not wanting to put the time in to level an alt (I haven't, but I don't expect the same perks as someone who has).
What happens when we have locks level 45 summoning, instead of 20? Can we expect another change? Yes, this will cut down on the personal alts people use to go and get their buffs to stay competitive on logs, but this isn't going to stop the presumed problem... it will just end up more bitching the next time Kazzak spawns and we get summoned with lock accounts already over 45, instead of 20. It's ok, I'll expect the Horde to make more level 1 alts that we can't do anything about purposefully wiping us. Kronos’s health and fairness above all else indeed.
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After my initial post, I wanted to send a private message to our developers to outline the limits of their measures. But I will do so here, as I think it should be made clear there is genuine support from hardcore Kronos players for an actual dismantling of Warlock networks.
Right now, said Warlock networks will be operational in less than a week with minimal effort. Understand that you only need a single one of your Warlocks at Level 45, while the other N (e.g. my other 11) Warlocks only need be leveled to 30. From then on, the player will use his 11 Level 30 Warlocks to summon the Level 45 Warlock around the world, which, in turn, will be used to summon the Level 60s to whichever location. You have basically only introduced a 5 seconds delay in the summoning process. Do not think the 20 to 30 gap requires more effort than 1 to 20, all these Warlocks benefit from full Rested experience already and, coupling that with a few Elite quests in Redridge and Duskwood, in the case of Alliance, 30 will be reached without breaking a sweat and in great numbers.
The most straightforward, effortless solution that would affect the least amount of players is to decrease the Level gap from 15 to 5, and require characters able to assist the summon to be no more than 5 Levels lower than the Warlock himself. I.e. Only a Level 55 Warlock with assistance from 2 Level 50s would be able to summon a Level 60 Character. Regular players would barely feel it, when they group up for Dungeons, the gaps between them are rarely larger than 5 Levels, and, when that is the case, players will deal with it by walking & riding just as if Warlocks were not in the party.
Fact of the matter is, Warlock full Raid summoning was always intended to be a cumbersome enough process so that it would only be used in very special cases when guilds were genuinely hitting a wall. This is why Death and Taxes and Nihilum back in the day only went for Songflowers et. all for KT attempts, not to farm the Molten Core. Consider re-establishing this 2006 guild-wide effort required to organize full Raid summoning, which was then ensured by the existence of the pay-wall, by implementing the suggestions above, or similar.
And understand that the difference between Blizzard’s tolerance then and Kronos’ actions now appears because on Retail you were clients, while here you are guests. Respect this nuance and your hosts.
Right now, said Warlock networks will be operational in less than a week with minimal effort. Understand that you only need a single one of your Warlocks at Level 45, while the other N (e.g. my other 11) Warlocks only need be leveled to 30. From then on, the player will use his 11 Level 30 Warlocks to summon the Level 45 Warlock around the world, which, in turn, will be used to summon the Level 60s to whichever location. You have basically only introduced a 5 seconds delay in the summoning process. Do not think the 20 to 30 gap requires more effort than 1 to 20, all these Warlocks benefit from full Rested experience already and, coupling that with a few Elite quests in Redridge and Duskwood, in the case of Alliance, 30 will be reached without breaking a sweat and in great numbers.
The most straightforward, effortless solution that would affect the least amount of players is to decrease the Level gap from 15 to 5, and require characters able to assist the summon to be no more than 5 Levels lower than the Warlock himself. I.e. Only a Level 55 Warlock with assistance from 2 Level 50s would be able to summon a Level 60 Character. Regular players would barely feel it, when they group up for Dungeons, the gaps between them are rarely larger than 5 Levels, and, when that is the case, players will deal with it by walking & riding just as if Warlocks were not in the party.
Fact of the matter is, Warlock full Raid summoning was always intended to be a cumbersome enough process so that it would only be used in very special cases when guilds were genuinely hitting a wall. This is why Death and Taxes and Nihilum back in the day only went for Songflowers et. all for KT attempts, not to farm the Molten Core. Consider re-establishing this 2006 guild-wide effort required to organize full Raid summoning, which was then ensured by the existence of the pay-wall, by implementing the suggestions above, or similar.
And understand that the difference between Blizzard’s tolerance then and Kronos’ actions now appears because on Retail you were clients, while here you are guests. Respect this nuance and your hosts.
I don't remember a guild-wide effort required in 2006. I remember 3 people being required to summon from their ONLY accounts, which means 1 person to spot, then alert the team via messaging or text (As we currently do), then log on to their mains to get summoned. Currently, we only use 1, MAYBE 2 locks to start summons for raids, as they did in Vanilla. Only difference on this server, is it is a bit easier to do, with clicker alts. Why would anyone be upset about people using personal lock summoners so they can get buffs for raid? This doesn't hurt ANYONE...
The most straightforward, effortless solution to what problem? Being faster for World Bosses? Making it "less easy" to summon a raid, but at the same speed? People putting in 1-2 hours of pre-raid time to get their buffs, plus level the lock so they can keep time on the buffs for raid?
I really don't see the issue, and I feel like I am taking crazy pills.
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Haven't read all the posts but intuitively this seems like a good solution.
Akka
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Sorry but NO.
First, 5 lvl difference is rather common when doing dungeon, this modification would actually be very noticeable and very annoying.
Second, regular players, playing the game in a normal way, shouldn't have their abilities messed up to the point they acutely feel the restriction, just to prevent abuse by a handful : people legitimely playing warlock should be able to enjoy their class abilities and use them.
The price to pay shouldn't be higher than the cost of what one is trying to avoid. I agree that the abuse of teleporting is annoying, but it doesn't justifty to wreck the game for everyone else.
I have the advantage of looking at it from a neutral point of view. Some people still haven't understood - or rather refuse to understand - this change is not about being more or less hardcore, it's not about hindering a more or less wide group of players.
It's about the unblizzlike, free-of-charge account creation that allows for a specific class (and ability) to be used as custom-made, instant flight masters, basically.
I agree, however, that the measure is still perfectible, and that setting up this kind of limitation can sound too much of an ad-personam, a specific, inelegant and coarse solution to an exploit that unlimited accounts permit, hence why those who made a large use of it feel like they're being personally targeted. There should never be double standards, not even the faintest doubt should be left about it. Better yet, an elegant solution is such when it applies to all circumstances, leaving no room to bias and requiring no further intervention.
Hence why what I would suggest is to take into consideration the level range of regions where such abuses would happen, instead of the number of players responsible for them, because the level of a character is the best parameter which defines what said character would be actually, legitimately doing in a certain zone. It would be impartial and therefore more easily acceptable. Mark my words, it's just an idea, maybe the hardcore turn could be a bit too much, I don't know. But it would for sure make the game harder, more fair, and thus more rewarding. Make the presence of low-level characters - better yet, their ability to log out - impossible in regions where they would have nothing to do other than, so to speak, unblizzlike things. Make so that they cannot set their heartstones in any inn from a zone that should be, say, 15 or 20 levels higher than their current own level. Should they try to log out while in such zones, the same error message would trigger as if they were trying to log out while in combat. If they alt-F4, they would die and their spirit teleported back to where they had their heartstone set (hence why the aforesaid impossibility to set it in too high zones for them). It shouldn't be too hard to code, from a merely technical standpoint. No bias, no ad-personam interventions, no micromanagement on the GMs' end. Think of the consequences.
Example: Take Lord Kazzak. He is in Blasted Lands (level 47-55 region); 55 minus 15 equals 40: level 41 would be the minimum level required to be able to log out/set your heartstone there. Goodbye level 20-40 summon alts (level 41s would still be totally ok, and likely so few in numbers that their use could fall within what Davros refers to as acceptable limits). Goodbye level 1 griefers. Goodbye low-level spies. Goodbye spawn campers. Goodbye resource node campers. Not only would the gameplay be harder, more challenging, more fair, more rewarding and more blizzlike. It would even be as close as possible to its original, pristine blizzlike state when content was newly released, and people were clueless.
If there's a realm where such a (imho professional and highly polished) feature could be made, that's Kronos.
It's about the unblizzlike, free-of-charge account creation that allows for a specific class (and ability) to be used as custom-made, instant flight masters, basically.
I agree, however, that the measure is still perfectible, and that setting up this kind of limitation can sound too much of an ad-personam, a specific, inelegant and coarse solution to an exploit that unlimited accounts permit, hence why those who made a large use of it feel like they're being personally targeted. There should never be double standards, not even the faintest doubt should be left about it. Better yet, an elegant solution is such when it applies to all circumstances, leaving no room to bias and requiring no further intervention.
Hence why what I would suggest is to take into consideration the level range of regions where such abuses would happen, instead of the number of players responsible for them, because the level of a character is the best parameter which defines what said character would be actually, legitimately doing in a certain zone. It would be impartial and therefore more easily acceptable. Mark my words, it's just an idea, maybe the hardcore turn could be a bit too much, I don't know. But it would for sure make the game harder, more fair, and thus more rewarding. Make the presence of low-level characters - better yet, their ability to log out - impossible in regions where they would have nothing to do other than, so to speak, unblizzlike things. Make so that they cannot set their heartstones in any inn from a zone that should be, say, 15 or 20 levels higher than their current own level. Should they try to log out while in such zones, the same error message would trigger as if they were trying to log out while in combat. If they alt-F4, they would die and their spirit teleported back to where they had their heartstone set (hence why the aforesaid impossibility to set it in too high zones for them). It shouldn't be too hard to code, from a merely technical standpoint. No bias, no ad-personam interventions, no micromanagement on the GMs' end. Think of the consequences.
Example: Take Lord Kazzak. He is in Blasted Lands (level 47-55 region); 55 minus 15 equals 40: level 41 would be the minimum level required to be able to log out/set your heartstone there. Goodbye level 20-40 summon alts (level 41s would still be totally ok, and likely so few in numbers that their use could fall within what Davros refers to as acceptable limits). Goodbye level 1 griefers. Goodbye low-level spies. Goodbye spawn campers. Goodbye resource node campers. Not only would the gameplay be harder, more challenging, more fair, more rewarding and more blizzlike. It would even be as close as possible to its original, pristine blizzlike state when content was newly released, and people were clueless.
If there's a realm where such a (imho professional and highly polished) feature could be made, that's Kronos.
Moradin to the rescue once again. I think your idea is much better and cleaner than the current fix. It would also "fix" the griefing etc. Not sure if the formula "Highest level of the zone - 15" is the best way to go, but I get that it is just an example. Let's wait if GMs like the idea and if it's really implementable.
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All right, short replies for answers to my post.
@Barri,
In my opinion, that was the most straightforward, effortless solution to the problem of going through a very disimilar raiding experience to the 2006 one, whose at least partial reconstruction is the whole purpose of Kronos being here in the first place.
Yes, needing the aid of those extra players, not accounts, was precisely what made the difference. Your account had 10 slots and needed space for Alts and Banks, so you had to organize who and how many players were placing Characters where, else you had to have those 3 initial chaps take the time to actually travel to the spot first. Thus, full Raid summoning was something used for special situations. Currently, on Kronos, the Warlock networks are akin to the Dungeon Finder queue. Aren’t we all here to get away from that, among others?
@Akka,
We can agree on middle ground, I think. As I wrote in the post your quote, it’s either this or a similar solution. Compromises can be reached. How about a 7 Levels difference? Level 46 assisting Level 53 Warlock to summon Level 60 still sounds like a viable solution. But a full 15 Levels gap is very unusual in Dungeon groups and makes it too easy to game the new rules, so I think it would perhaps be preferrable if we’d find a solid answer now.
@Aurigon,
Your solution would never work or would be very easily circumvented as well, because of the proximity of low-level areas. Felwood Songflowers? Use the southern ones by the border with Ashenvale. Avoid losing time flying to the Burning Steppes? Use the border with Redridge. Get from Ironforge to the Feralas Nightmare Dragon in a jiffy? Use the border with Desolace. The existence of low-level summoners for the Mulgore & Elwynn Forest DMF buffs, the Yojamba Isle buff or Zul'Gurub, as well as for the Duskwood and Ashenvale Nightmare Dragons could not even be disputed. Blasted Lands is a small zone and summoning the raid at the border with Swamp of Sorrows barely adds 90 seconds minute of travel time before reaching Kazzak. Would not even prevent Kazzak Level 1 griefing, because you merely prohibit low-levels from logging out in the area, so Level 1s can be summoned for that specific evening from Elwynn for this ad infinitum. Thus, unworkable.
Ta
@Barri,
In my opinion, that was the most straightforward, effortless solution to the problem of going through a very disimilar raiding experience to the 2006 one, whose at least partial reconstruction is the whole purpose of Kronos being here in the first place.
Yes, needing the aid of those extra players, not accounts, was precisely what made the difference. Your account had 10 slots and needed space for Alts and Banks, so you had to organize who and how many players were placing Characters where, else you had to have those 3 initial chaps take the time to actually travel to the spot first. Thus, full Raid summoning was something used for special situations. Currently, on Kronos, the Warlock networks are akin to the Dungeon Finder queue. Aren’t we all here to get away from that, among others?
@Akka,
We can agree on middle ground, I think. As I wrote in the post your quote, it’s either this or a similar solution. Compromises can be reached. How about a 7 Levels difference? Level 46 assisting Level 53 Warlock to summon Level 60 still sounds like a viable solution. But a full 15 Levels gap is very unusual in Dungeon groups and makes it too easy to game the new rules, so I think it would perhaps be preferrable if we’d find a solid answer now.
@Aurigon,
Your solution would never work or would be very easily circumvented as well, because of the proximity of low-level areas. Felwood Songflowers? Use the southern ones by the border with Ashenvale. Avoid losing time flying to the Burning Steppes? Use the border with Redridge. Get from Ironforge to the Feralas Nightmare Dragon in a jiffy? Use the border with Desolace. The existence of low-level summoners for the Mulgore & Elwynn Forest DMF buffs, the Yojamba Isle buff or Zul'Gurub, as well as for the Duskwood and Ashenvale Nightmare Dragons could not even be disputed. Blasted Lands is a small zone and summoning the raid at the border with Swamp of Sorrows barely adds 90 seconds minute of travel time before reaching Kazzak. Would not even prevent Kazzak Level 1 griefing, because you merely prohibit low-levels from logging out in the area, so Level 1s can be summoned for that specific evening from Elwynn for this ad infinitum. Thus, unworkable.
Ta
Akka
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Again, it's a far too heavy-handed solution, altering the entire game for everyone just to curb some abuse for a few. Low-level players have a perfectly legitimate right to go explore wherever they want, and artificially putting up barriers is not acceptable.
The idea of using the level of the zone is to be considered, though. As a matter of fact, one of my first post in this thread simply suggested to link the summoning limitation to the level of the zone instead of the level of the character summoned to set up limits (like, if you're in Azshara, you need to be at least lvl 30 to summon or so). Problem being, obviously, that some world boss are in low-level zones (like Duskwood) which would make the limitation moot. But well.
I agree. Punishing warlocks is not a solution. The thing is, this isn't world boss related, or your solution may work. We only use 1, MAYBE 2 summoning locks to start summons for raid, the rest is in our group with 60 mains that log on for the world boss, and I know we have more than enough 45 locks to spare. This is because of the recent "AFK leveling" issue, and now this is all of a sudden a problem. There is no issue with unfairness currently, and this change will do nothing to stop summoning alts for world bosses (although we are supposed to believe that is the reason). This will only break the game for locks, and make it more difficult for people to get all of the buffs they want for raid.
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Rockmaster
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My question is why you need all world buffs to beginn with? All current content is already cleared. It is only rly useful during new raid progression and first kill races.
Until new raid content is released the hardcore ppl will already have their lvl 45 locks.
Also it is a great opportunity to make some stars for ppl who want to auction their unused warlocks
Until new raid content is released the hardcore ppl will already have their lvl 45 locks.
Also it is a great opportunity to make some stars for ppl who want to auction their unused warlocks
tl:dr - minority used many accounts for a small advantage which doesnt effect other player , devs decided to make kronos less blizz-like - for everyone.
Boy, this server is dying because of one thing - the non stop mistakes the dev team in here are doing.
Boy, this server is dying because of one thing - the non stop mistakes the dev team in here are doing.
While I appreciate the effort from the GM to adress an issue that was clearly not blizzlike and was becoming rather silly being summoned all over the world I have to agree with Dalloway that this is a really bad fix for this problem.
And Vanguard, why are you crying over this? Do you not realize that this gives you an even bigger advantage for world bosses? You are arguably the only guild "hardcore" enough to adapt to this change. All you have done here is made your guild look like a bunch of children crying in the candy section of the food store because daddy wont buy you your favorite candy. :crying:
And Vanguard, why are you crying over this? Do you not realize that this gives you an even bigger advantage for world bosses? You are arguably the only guild "hardcore" enough to adapt to this change. All you have done here is made your guild look like a bunch of children crying in the candy section of the food store because daddy wont buy you your favorite candy. :crying:
My question is why you need all world buffs to beginn with? All current content is already cleared. It is only rly useful during new raid progression and first kill races.
Until new raid content is released the hardcore ppl will already have their lvl 45 locks.
Also it is a great opportunity to make some stars for ppl who want to auction their unused warlocks
The main reason is to be competitive on sites like RealmPlayers, Kronos-logs, etc. and to min/max as much as possible to set personal records. I love the competitiveness of WoW, and I am definitely willing to put in the extra effort for the buffs. It isn't a matter of needing them, it is a matter of wanting them to compete
. This is how myself and a lot of my guildies feel. I really don't have a reason to raid if I am not trying to beat my previous personal record.Having personal summoning alts to save buff times isn't a bad thing. This doesn't harm anyone, does not affect server economy in any way, and actually promotes growth for people who are attracted to the server for its high competitiveness.
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Rockmaster
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The main reason is to be competitive on sites like RealmPlayers, Kronos-logs, etc. and to min/max as much as possible to set personal records. I love the competitiveness of WoW, and I am definitely willing to put in the extra effort for the buffs. It isn't a matter of needing them, it is a matter of wanting them to compete
Having personal alts to save buff times isn't a bad thing. This doesn't harm anyone, does not affect server economy in any way, and actually promotes growth for people who are attracted to the server for its high competitiveness.
I see, from that point of view it sucks.
Anyway, they said they dont want to stop self summoning completely. All they want is to make it in a way that ppl dont self summon for every little bullshit. Making it “harder“ just make people think twice before making additional accounts. It also means that people have to choose the location of the summon alt more carefully.
Well, seems like the bar for being "hardcore" got raised.
In vanilla it was money, now its a higher (appropriate imo) level cap.
Thats imho the reason why so many ppl are crying because their egos got hurt. :x
Also a LOT of undifferentiated bullshit/statements in this thread. Holy crap!
In vanilla it was money, now its a higher (appropriate imo) level cap.
Thats imho the reason why so many ppl are crying because their egos got hurt. :x
Also a LOT of undifferentiated bullshit/statements in this thread. Holy crap!
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Akka
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I think it'll be hard to get a solid answer, because as the staff said, it's more about keeping things at a tolerable level (so it's about an indefined level of acceptability) than it is about a clearcut concept violation. As such, it's a blurry frontier.
As for the level difference, I stay by the core idea that the game shouldn't be twisted for the majority just to avoid fringe abuse (so that the medecine shouldn't be worse than the illness). Warlock ability to summon is a core class concept and should be usable in any instance of regular play, and also in instances where it's pushing it a bit, because finding way to push it is part of the game.
Dungeons have rather large level brackets, and it's fine to be underleveled or overleveled on top of that (the very generous lower level limit made by Blizzard is a good guideline to follow I'd say). How low can a player be to enter Uldaman ? Early mob are as low as 36, so I'd say it's easily in the 30s. How high can he be and still legitimatly have something to do ? Last quest is about lvl 45, and he can be lvl 50 and still has it as a green one. So we already have something of a 20 levels gap between both, who have legitimate reasons to be there, and that's being conservative. It's even already larger than the limit the staff put.
I'm going to repeat myself, but I think it's a core point to not lose sight of while trying to find solution : the fix shouldn't be worse than the problem, and the whole playerbase shouldn't be punished just to curb a few abusers.
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I wholeheartedly agree, but trying to find out how "abusing" warlock summoning alts affects anyone else, short of annoying the people who haven't put the time in to get one.
My big problem with this "change" is it didn't seem like an issue before, and it is not having a negative effect on the game/server at all (That I can think of). It seems like it is just irritating to a few very vocal individuals, who it doesn't affect at all. Raids being summoned to world bosses is not going to change, unless summoning is completely removed, so to suggest the changes are to assist with that does not make logical sense.
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How the whole (ordinary) playerbase is going to be affected by the new limit is still beyond me.
Akka
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I'm speaking about your proposition, which would definitely affect people.
The limit the staff put in the game can also definitely affect a number of people (anyone who is of a much higher level and wish to give a hand to a group for example), but it's minor enough I think it's acceptable.
How the whole "ordinary" playerbase was affected negatively by the old limit is still beyond me.
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