But is he wrong?
Buff Naxx
- Thread starter nimeralos
- Start date
But is he wrong?
Chero
Kronos Administrator
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2010
As I told you in-game, we are still discussing your suggestions and possibilities. We will let you know in time.
I guess this thread can be closed now for people can use the official one instead. Still, I feel that the Sapphiron bottleneck is a "special case" worth considering, because the frostres farm is an important "part" of Naxx experience that is in risk of being neglected by the players of Kronos.
And here I thought Kronos raids were LFR difficulty..
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=90404
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=90404
Yeah we wiped on our no buff c'thun run it happens. C'thun is one of those fights where one person can fuck the entire run up for all 40 people with just one easy miss-position, but you dont see me whining here "NERF C'THUN IT"S SO HARD WE WIPED" it was challenging for whatever reason that night and I'm pleasantly happy that instead of whining about the boss mechanics everyone kept trying and those who were able to ignore boss mechanics due to world buffs were outed and(hopefully) learned from their mistakes. Again unlike some the anti buffing crowds opinions I'm fine with wipes it says to the raid your last effort was not good enough to kill this boss so shape up, learn from your mistakes and try again rather than having the mindset this boss has to die because I deserve it to die.
That is all fine, but if it was lfr difficulty, you would have oneshot cthun also without world buffs, and that is why nobody should abuse the prefix lfr for kronos raid difficulty any longer. It is quite respectable that you do a run without buffs though.
You guys saying everything is LFR difficulty yet you the "top" NA guild wiping on a boss 7x in a row contradicts that narrative. I also find it amusing you say no buff cthun like it's remotely relevant. You do realize cthun on this server is a joke right? Its most certainly a joke when you have the gear Risen has. You have been farming AQ40 for an entire year now.
We did one-shot him last week with no world buffs and a ret paladin in the raid.
It's not that relevant for the discussion you allude to (Naxx difficulty) because is one of the few bosses that his mechanics are like Amoonir said: only 1 guy can screw up the entire 40-man group too easily.
Our roster has changed a lot in that year, and so has the roster of most guilds.
Chainsaw I think your confusing shard's arguments for mine I dont think C'thun is LFR difficulty. Like I said it's one of those fights where one person can fuck up the fight from the beginning. With that said this isn't the only time we have done no buff c'thun. We did it last week and one shot him and awhile back we had someone accidentally aggro c'thun while we were buffing multiple times so we didn't have the luxury of world buffs then either. Sometimes we wiped more than once but other times I believe we still one shot him I will have to go back and look to see exact numbers.
Same thing to you Varth I don't think I've stated everything is LFR difficulty but personally I do think alot of vanilla mechanics are not difficult. The only fights in the current content that I would consider difficult are fights that require the entire raids to position properly which is basically just C'thun (possibly rag as well if a mana user decides to stand in the melee well rip) and some of naxxramas.
On top of that no buff C'thun is actually relevant and for you to say it's not is actually surprising to me. Any form of overall raid buffing is a boon to the raids success on any boss. ZG supplies an increase to HP, DPS, and movement speed. This movement speed increase is actually great for C'thun since it allows people to position and move away from certain mechanics faster. The HP increases allows some players to actually survive being hit by a beam that chains from 3 people (about 9k dmg) further increasing chances of success because of increasing player survival rate from fuck ups. ZG buff paired with Dragonslayer buff provides a dps increases which causes the boss to die faster and thus people don't need to properly respect the mechanics for a long time or even skip mechanics entirely. An easy example of this for C'thun is that we normally kill C'thun after his first Dark glare which means that the entire raid doesn't need to worry about how to re position after the first dark glare because the boss is dead. However in a no buff this isn't the case so if you dont know how to get back to your new spot there is a high risk you will end up chaining. I saw this occurring with the melee and I felt this because the room felt a lot more cramped where I was like people weren't properly spread out in the right positions but trying to fit into wrong positions.
Also I don't understand your argument about C'thun being a joke I personally don't see C'thun as a joke at all as I stated above. Yet you are somehow both implying that C'thun is not LFR difficulty and C'thun is a joke. You can't take both side of this argument.
I would be more receptive of your opinion Varth if you were in a guild that cleared C'thun without buffs(if you are in one and im simply oblivious let me know but it doesn't seem that way to me). I know Chainsaw's guild does so I feel his points have more weight.
The whole no buffing and buffing issue for me is I'm fine with either. I am biased towards buffing just because I enjoy going through a struggle not because I demand Vanilla content to be harder for nostalgic reasons. I find it enjoyable to look for ways to improve myself in order to overcome some obstacle so I seek and am naturally drawn to difficult content. I would be perfectly fine if the content wasn't buffed at all but I personally probably wouldn't be playing very long if everything in naxx got killed with ease. Based on what you said earlier Varth this might be possible since you suggested buffing now after experiencing anathema Naxx.
The main point I wanted to get across is that Risen didn't deserve to kill that boss that day. We killed him because people in our guild decided to shape up and keep going at it until we saw that boss dead. That's the kind of attitude I want in any guild I join where they blame themselves instead of the boss or world around them for their failures AND when they do find fault in themselves they improve themselves so that on the next attempt we get closer to success.
Same thing to you Varth I don't think I've stated everything is LFR difficulty but personally I do think alot of vanilla mechanics are not difficult. The only fights in the current content that I would consider difficult are fights that require the entire raids to position properly which is basically just C'thun (possibly rag as well if a mana user decides to stand in the melee well rip) and some of naxxramas.
On top of that no buff C'thun is actually relevant and for you to say it's not is actually surprising to me. Any form of overall raid buffing is a boon to the raids success on any boss. ZG supplies an increase to HP, DPS, and movement speed. This movement speed increase is actually great for C'thun since it allows people to position and move away from certain mechanics faster. The HP increases allows some players to actually survive being hit by a beam that chains from 3 people (about 9k dmg) further increasing chances of success because of increasing player survival rate from fuck ups. ZG buff paired with Dragonslayer buff provides a dps increases which causes the boss to die faster and thus people don't need to properly respect the mechanics for a long time or even skip mechanics entirely. An easy example of this for C'thun is that we normally kill C'thun after his first Dark glare which means that the entire raid doesn't need to worry about how to re position after the first dark glare because the boss is dead. However in a no buff this isn't the case so if you dont know how to get back to your new spot there is a high risk you will end up chaining. I saw this occurring with the melee and I felt this because the room felt a lot more cramped where I was like people weren't properly spread out in the right positions but trying to fit into wrong positions.
Also I don't understand your argument about C'thun being a joke I personally don't see C'thun as a joke at all as I stated above. Yet you are somehow both implying that C'thun is not LFR difficulty and C'thun is a joke. You can't take both side of this argument.
I would be more receptive of your opinion Varth if you were in a guild that cleared C'thun without buffs(if you are in one and im simply oblivious let me know but it doesn't seem that way to me). I know Chainsaw's guild does so I feel his points have more weight.
The whole no buffing and buffing issue for me is I'm fine with either. I am biased towards buffing just because I enjoy going through a struggle not because I demand Vanilla content to be harder for nostalgic reasons. I find it enjoyable to look for ways to improve myself in order to overcome some obstacle so I seek and am naturally drawn to difficult content. I would be perfectly fine if the content wasn't buffed at all but I personally probably wouldn't be playing very long if everything in naxx got killed with ease. Based on what you said earlier Varth this might be possible since you suggested buffing now after experiencing anathema Naxx.
The main point I wanted to get across is that Risen didn't deserve to kill that boss that day. We killed him because people in our guild decided to shape up and keep going at it until we saw that boss dead. That's the kind of attitude I want in any guild I join where they blame themselves instead of the boss or world around them for their failures AND when they do find fault in themselves they improve themselves so that on the next attempt we get closer to success.
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I'm in Not LIke This who have killed Cthun without world buffs. I was in Rag Monday Boys, our first Cthun kill had no wbuffs and it took us a whopping 3 attempts total to kill em with no ptr practice or anything. We were planning on wbuffing after learning the encounter yet he was easy enough we killed him on a learning attempt. I've also killed a much harder Cthun without wbuffs on Anathema, its higher armor on everything, double the tentacle party hp, double the small claw spawns, double the small claw hp, and diminishing returns on stuns for big eyes. That's where most of my C'thun is easy talk comes from.
I would agree with you that for the majority of experienced players, most of the content is not difficult. The primary issue in vanilla is finding 39 other experienced people that don't fuck it up and keeping them around. The difference in the guilds that have 30+ vets and the guilds with 10 is quite large due to the snowballing effect of having more good players. This makes custom changes very hard to do without potentially locking guilds out of content they would have otherwise gotten to experience.
I was against doing custom changes on Kronos for a long time because the widely held assumption was that Kronos would be releasing Naxx before Anathema. I thought it was very foolish to try to buff Naxx when we didn't even know how different levels of guilds would perform in a blizzlike values setting.
The situation we are in today is different, Anathema beat Kronos to the punch in releasing Naxx and now we do have data from guilds across the skill spectrum to balance around. I now believe based upon observation of other guilds via their streams, my own experience within Naxx on the first 10 bosses, that there is merit to buffing some HP values and that while it will make the content more challenging for everyone, that it wont necessarily lock guilds out.
Great post Amoonir though seriously, posts like yours are why I'm active on forums.
I would agree with you that for the majority of experienced players, most of the content is not difficult. The primary issue in vanilla is finding 39 other experienced people that don't fuck it up and keeping them around. The difference in the guilds that have 30+ vets and the guilds with 10 is quite large due to the snowballing effect of having more good players. This makes custom changes very hard to do without potentially locking guilds out of content they would have otherwise gotten to experience.
I was against doing custom changes on Kronos for a long time because the widely held assumption was that Kronos would be releasing Naxx before Anathema. I thought it was very foolish to try to buff Naxx when we didn't even know how different levels of guilds would perform in a blizzlike values setting.
The situation we are in today is different, Anathema beat Kronos to the punch in releasing Naxx and now we do have data from guilds across the skill spectrum to balance around. I now believe based upon observation of other guilds via their streams, my own experience within Naxx on the first 10 bosses, that there is merit to buffing some HP values and that while it will make the content more challenging for everyone, that it wont necessarily lock guilds out.
Great post Amoonir though seriously, posts like yours are why I'm active on forums.
Yeah I know about Anathema C'thun I raided with DBC a couple weeks while they were progressing on C'thun and that C'thun is way harder than Kronos. But I can also say for myself it was the best time I ever had on a vanilla raid which just goes back to my personal preference on raiding content. I would agree that comparatively Kronos C'thun is pretty much a joke. The high spawn rate of little claws, Big Claws Doing Crazy melee dmg, Big Eyes doing crazy Melee Dmg, Little eyes constantly beaming people, etc, etc. In the beginning I would say DBC was definitely not prepared for that shit but that kind of tuning no doubt is helping them out in Naxx right now. Having players conditioned to fight that fight was great for increasing over all player skill but probably caused a decent amount of population attrition.
The real difficulty in Vanilla as you said is getting 39 other people who don't fuck up and also want to work harder to clear content. This isn't easy for every guild, it takes time just to gather players in general and if you add being selective about which players you bring in some guilds probably wouldn't even exist. On a server with as low a pop as Kronos it's hard to achieve a raid with this kind of dynamic since there isn't enough new players to be as selective as you would like. If I were to compare Risen today to Risen over a year ago I would say Risen a year ago was miles better because of the huge player pool we had access to. Overtime in order to fill raids there was no choice but to accept anyone who applied regardless of skill. I know the situation is worse for lower tier and new guilds. These are the guilds you are specifically referring to getting hurt by buffing since without them server would lose its alive feeling (whatever life it has left). Some people don't care about this at all since all that matter to them is the raiding content and all they need is 40 immediate people around them. Which is fine to each their own but personally I enjoy having a lively world as well its part of the reason I even play vanilla it feels like an mmorpg not a minigame machine.
If there was ever a point i was conflicted on buffing and not buffing it was where do you draw the line. The difficulty lies between making content too hard where only the best of the best can clear the content even with world buffs/full t3 gear and making it so easy that there is no real challenge. This is something I would have to trust entirely to the Kronos GMs and Dev team. I mean I have some ideas as to how to go about buffing the content in a balanced manner but it's not my job to decide that. If I had to guess everything but 4HM, sapph, and KT could have some decent buffing whereas buffing 4HM and sapph could be minor or nothing and KT could have some minor buff. This is purely based on how most of the raiding guilds did. Most guilds still havent killed 4HM for awhile and post KT hotfix the boss was quickly killed by both Coalition and DS indicating that perhaps the boss wasn't difficult just the bug that caused the encounter to be buffed. I'm not sure though due to the 4HM gating a lot of people from approaching KT. Scuba cops may be a good indicator on whether or not KT should have buffing based on how they perform on him since I saw they killed 4HM earlier today.
There is also the point that this server was stated to be a blizzlike server from the beginning to end and it makes no sense to change anything about Naxx now since this isn't falling in line with what Kronos promised in their server. I will admit this is a pretty convincing argument since those who care about pure blizzexact Naxx would definitely get shafted by any form of buffing since they would have never rolled on this server had they known about this.
And lastly on your point that it was foolish to buff the content without seeing a blizzlike Naxx I disagree. There was alot of sources of evidence provided that predicted that Naxx probably should be buffed. I would say that there was very high certainty that this was the case but not 100%. You probably prefer your evidence to be exactly blizzlike naxx experience first and see which is alright that's the most clear source of evidence as to whether the content should be buffed or not. All I will say is it's probably not coincidence that everyone here who predicted alot of naxx would be easy were correct. But I do admit that seeing an unbuffed Naxx is going to really help with properly finding a balance in buffing Naxx since there is real authentic data on how many guilds have killed what bosses.
The real difficulty in Vanilla as you said is getting 39 other people who don't fuck up and also want to work harder to clear content. This isn't easy for every guild, it takes time just to gather players in general and if you add being selective about which players you bring in some guilds probably wouldn't even exist. On a server with as low a pop as Kronos it's hard to achieve a raid with this kind of dynamic since there isn't enough new players to be as selective as you would like. If I were to compare Risen today to Risen over a year ago I would say Risen a year ago was miles better because of the huge player pool we had access to. Overtime in order to fill raids there was no choice but to accept anyone who applied regardless of skill. I know the situation is worse for lower tier and new guilds. These are the guilds you are specifically referring to getting hurt by buffing since without them server would lose its alive feeling (whatever life it has left). Some people don't care about this at all since all that matter to them is the raiding content and all they need is 40 immediate people around them. Which is fine to each their own but personally I enjoy having a lively world as well its part of the reason I even play vanilla it feels like an mmorpg not a minigame machine.
If there was ever a point i was conflicted on buffing and not buffing it was where do you draw the line. The difficulty lies between making content too hard where only the best of the best can clear the content even with world buffs/full t3 gear and making it so easy that there is no real challenge. This is something I would have to trust entirely to the Kronos GMs and Dev team. I mean I have some ideas as to how to go about buffing the content in a balanced manner but it's not my job to decide that. If I had to guess everything but 4HM, sapph, and KT could have some decent buffing whereas buffing 4HM and sapph could be minor or nothing and KT could have some minor buff. This is purely based on how most of the raiding guilds did. Most guilds still havent killed 4HM for awhile and post KT hotfix the boss was quickly killed by both Coalition and DS indicating that perhaps the boss wasn't difficult just the bug that caused the encounter to be buffed. I'm not sure though due to the 4HM gating a lot of people from approaching KT. Scuba cops may be a good indicator on whether or not KT should have buffing based on how they perform on him since I saw they killed 4HM earlier today.
There is also the point that this server was stated to be a blizzlike server from the beginning to end and it makes no sense to change anything about Naxx now since this isn't falling in line with what Kronos promised in their server. I will admit this is a pretty convincing argument since those who care about pure blizzexact Naxx would definitely get shafted by any form of buffing since they would have never rolled on this server had they known about this.
And lastly on your point that it was foolish to buff the content without seeing a blizzlike Naxx I disagree. There was alot of sources of evidence provided that predicted that Naxx probably should be buffed. I would say that there was very high certainty that this was the case but not 100%. You probably prefer your evidence to be exactly blizzlike naxx experience first and see which is alright that's the most clear source of evidence as to whether the content should be buffed or not. All I will say is it's probably not coincidence that everyone here who predicted alot of naxx would be easy were correct. But I do admit that seeing an unbuffed Naxx is going to really help with properly finding a balance in buffing Naxx since there is real authentic data on how many guilds have killed what bosses.
^^^
KT was killed eventually but it wasn't exactly easy. Look at the Dreamstate video. It was intense right down to the end and if everyone in the raid wasn't on point then it would have been a wipe at 20%. Wiping 40+ times previous will help focus. There are not going to be many who can beat KT without World Buffs; even at normal values.
KT was killed eventually but it wasn't exactly easy. Look at the Dreamstate video. It was intense right down to the end and if everyone in the raid wasn't on point then it would have been a wipe at 20%. Wiping 40+ times previous will help focus. There are not going to be many who can beat KT without World Buffs; even at normal values.
KT was bugged, he was unkillable and after he was fixed he was oneshot by both Dreamstate and Coalition.
You didn't read what I said then Slippy. I didn't say it was easy I said I am not sure what the difficulty of KT is since he was bugged to be very difficult but once the bug was removed both Dreamstate and Coaltion one shot him as said above. So it is not necessarily clear what the difficulty of blizzlike naxx is based on their kill. Which I state in my post above and hold reservation on buffing KT until another guild comes and kills him post the hotfix (I mention Scuba Cops since they killed 4HM and are well on their way to getting to KT soon). If this guild one shots KT perhaps unbuffed KT isn't that strong but if they struggle then KT may not need any buffing at all I simply dont know. Almost positive I said the same thing in my above post as I said here. Also no doubt all the previous attempts helped them polish their skill on KT but I'm simply stating that they were most likely over prepared for killing KT because of their experience with the bugged KT so it is hard to judge if he needs buffing or not based on their attempts which is why I am waiting for another guild to come in and attempt to kill him.
1. http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=90624
2. http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=90662
3. http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=91029
4. http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=91459
39 tries on blizzlike difficulty
just sayin.
2. http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=90662
3. http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=91029
4. http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=91459
39 tries on blizzlike difficulty
just sayin.
alright but thats one guild look at Scuba Cops (NA guild)
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=90111
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=90585
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=91115
20 attempts 4HM
6 Sapphiron
9 KT
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=90111
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=90585
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=91115
20 attempts 4HM
6 Sapphiron
9 KT
^^
Yes, even Blizzlike Naxx causes way more wipes than any other raid did.
Yes, Blizzlike Naxx causes way less wipes than "Blizzlike experience" is.
Yes, even buffed Naxx will cause way less wipes than "Blizzlike experience" is.
Something is wrong with this raid I think.
Yes, even Blizzlike Naxx causes way more wipes than any other raid did.
Yes, Blizzlike Naxx causes way less wipes than "Blizzlike experience" is.
Yes, even buffed Naxx will cause way less wipes than "Blizzlike experience" is.
Something is wrong with this raid I think.