Disabling world buffs

[Slippy]

If you're going disable world buffs then only do it for the first week or two. No buffs for opening week would help iron out mechanics since it's not being brute forced.

Disabling World Buffs for something like 100 days would kill the server. After 100 days; if you had a guild that can clear without, it would seem pointless going back with the content so easy.

Also, isn't the trash supposed to be pretty tough? Even now a lot of people lose their buffs on AQ trash.

 

[Horo]

I'm willing to bet most of the people who claim "naxx was ez during retail" didn't actually visit the place when it was relevant, much less got past anub. A single lagspike could destroy you on Heigan.

As one of the people who gets the urge to gag at the mere thought of getting world buffs for every encounter attempt in naxx due to overbuffing to an absurd degree which necessitates world buffs, I can at least say that balancing the encounters around not having world buffs is a good call.

On the topic of actually having the buffs inside the raid - I personally think that not having them available in naxx would make for a more enjoyable experience for everyone, though I do understand the point of view of people who want to have them available to them.

If Naxx is balanced around not having world buffs - if then people show up with buffs and smash the place (they won't, most'll wipe during progress) - don't start complaining that you feel disappointed.

 

[roarnstuff]

Stuff Rybkos said

What you say is probably true. But you don't know and you can't say until Naxx is actually released. In the 20 years since original Naxx only 1 server has released KT and that was a cardboard cutout pretending to be a boss. So lets release it some time this millennia and see what happens.



In any case they got TBC in the works (hopefully it doesn't take as long to script. Ha). And / Or they could always just open a new server every couple of years and merge the old servers so people don't lose their chars (even though we all know the old server will die).

It could be a whole thing. Open new server. Clear through Naxx with a non retarded content release schedule. Merge with old server that no one plays on but has all their time spent bis characters on. Open new server.

Could do the same thing with TBC assuming it doesn't take ten million billion years to script it too. Could even coordinate so the new TBC server opens with the merge of the old naxx server so people can get that authentic progression feel.


Boy it would be nice to type for more than 5 minutes without getting logged out.

 

[Spazztastic]

I've been watching the thread, still haven't really come to a decision about this all. Lots of good points all around. Very quality admin post as well Bazzil.

I'm a naxx virgin, never stepped inside, bar one time getting carried in wotlk patch.

Stepping inside, I would like to see from the eyes of one who would have done so back in the day.
to reiterate that means I want a fresh experience, from a game I have played for a long time.


so to go through all the travel and buff logging, only to faceroll it all without much regard for team effort(dps hores) plus avoiding intended tactics, it just seems super anticlimactic.

getting back into that zzz farm feeling that most of us have with current content, would increase in player burnout and harm server longevity for sure.

so I guess I would say let's cherry pick what common world buffs are used ie ony/nef/zg buff, and have others like silithus and songflower etc fade out upon zone in.

middle ground is best but the less 'meddling' the better imo

also no offline buff time ticking, it'd make too many peeps ragequit

 

[gly]

A single lagspike could destroy you on Heigan.

You'll have to come up with a better example to illustrate the difficulty of the original dungeon than the Heigen fight :tongue:
11 years later I don't think even Irae will be sporting frost mages with 2.5k hp dying after the 180° keyboard turn at the edge of the room has put them behind, even if their mouse sensitivity isn't too low for them to swing the cursor over to the 'blink' icon. That weird guy who does the 'lalala' thing might need a soulstone though. My point is that people are far more knowledgable about the mechanics of this game now than back then. Browse some of the videos from the time to see what kind of stuff guilds were getting away with.

In the 20 years since original Naxx only 1 server has released KT and that was a cardboard cutout pretending to be a boss.

I never played it properly but the Feenix version of KT was reportedly super-buffed compared to the original game, so much so that there was forum drama about getting it nerfed when the so-called top guild couldn't brute-force their way through it, and the underdog guild on the faction put in obscene amounts of time and claimed the arbitrary faction-first achievement when the boss finally dropped. Apart from the fact that the administration took the world buff 'culture' into account when tuning the fight, it seemed like an appropriate difficulty setting when only the very best guild could beat the game.

 

[Horo]

You'll have to come up with a better example to illustrate the difficulty of the original dungeon than the Heigen fight :tongue:

The rest of naxx was a lagfest as well... do you want blizzlike lagfests? Let's go one step further. Blizzlike Naxx had invisible voidzones spawned by Lady Blaumeux and similar shenanigans on other bosses.

The point is, there were bugs which made the encounters unintentionally difficult.

I actually do have a Nat Pagle's Broken Reel in my Warrior's inventory, which at the time nobody had because the 4HM encounter had unprecedented punishment against failed taunts, now it'll be easier because people know what's coming. It was mainly artificial difficulty to be honest.

 

[Sarei]

I really hope they make it at least Feenix-like hard and buffed in all aspects, if it's not possible even harder. In 2013 I started raiding for the first time ever and I joined probably one of the most disorganized guilds to step foot inside of Naxxramas on that server (and there were many guilds throughout the years) and we killed 9-10 bosses after few weeks, but we never killed C'Thun. All that with everyone being new to the instance and without any preparation (RL was explaining tactics to everyone in TS all the time since most didn't read up on it or watched videos beforehand), 3-4 new people every raid, more then half not using consumable, shitton of backpedalers and whatever raid comp (at some point we had 5 hunters and 2-3 shadow priests and just couple fury warriors and warlocks). We weren't BiS geared either, noone had Naxx items from before or even BiS pre-Naxx, just a mix of epics from earlier content without too much AQ40 loot. We always lost world buffs withing first 2-3 bosses too (only for Patchwerk we went to take new buffs since we weren't decked out in gear) and still managed to clear more then half of really buffed Feenix Naxx. When I compare those raids to these speedrun nerds, they would just rape the instance even as buffed as it was. If it was Kronos-like level (content we have so far) of PvE difficulty, they would kill KT within 3 hours. So, yeah, should make it really hard and tuned up as much as possible to make it at least somewhat interesting.

Also, a few thoughts. I liked that Feenix delayed last couple of bosses. That was probably a mix of scripting issues and a desire to prolong the server's life, but at the end it worked out nicely for everyone, the server was populated and fun for 5 years. Of course, 1 year between bosses was ridiculous, but maybe 3 months between 4HM death and Sapphiron release and another 3 months between Sapphiron and KT is not a bad idea? And you could tune those bosses up even more when you release them so they are T3-required fights. It would give something like next level challenge to hardcore guilds and prolong server's life for at least half an year.

 

[Chainsaw]

2013 + 5 years = 2018 @sarei

 

[roarnstuff]

I never played it properly but the Feenix version of KT was reportedly super-buffed

Yeah. I heard it was super scripted as well.

 

[Sarei]

Did I say somewhere I played on it since day 1?

 

[Relada]

Yeah. I heard it was super scripted as well.

I bet omega is your source)))))))))))))))))

 

[roarnstuff]

Also, a few thoughts. I liked that Feenix delayed last couple of bosses. That was probably a mix of scripting issues and a desire to prolong the server's life, but at the end it worked out nicely for everyone, the server was populated and fun for 5 years.

Oh yeah totally. That wasn't because it was the only option out there and they ddossed any server with more than 5 players. People couldn't leave that turd factory fast enough every time there was an opportunity. Rip raptor squad or whoever that guild was.


In any case; delaying bosses is a terrible idea. The raid will be steamrolled as is because of how long it's taken to release it and now you want to remove all remaining strategy by just walling off the last two bosses. Why don't you just disband the top 10 guilds on the server now and cut out the middle man. Are there even 10 guilds left?

That's just a stalling tactic. A stalling tactic that will make any player base left at that point angry. Whatever your reasoning behind it: you want the server to last longer. You want full bis Naxx before your guild dies, you fear the unknown, it's a stalling tactic.

How awesome would it have been if they delayed c'thun for 3 months after aq release? What's that? It would have been horrible and stupid? But it totally would have given them 3 months to script naxx. Well now I wish they woulda done it.

 

[gly]

The rest of naxx was a lagfest as well... do you want blizzlike lagfests? Let's go one step further. Blizzlike Naxx had invisible voidzones spawned by Lady Blaumeux and similar shenanigans on other bosses.

The point is, there were bugs which made the encounters unintentionally difficult.

You're writing as if to argue with me but I'm not sure if we disagree...

What you're saying is that - instead of the boss mechanics, damage and HP - it was lag spikes and bugs that made the original Naxxramas difficult? So if it's all tuned to the same degree of difficulty we can expect the Kronos version to be an even easier experience, provided that guilds aren't raiding during AV weekend? :smile:

I don't have any serious roots planted on this server, so I won't lose any sleep over whether the right or wrong decisions are made by the management. Honestly, I'm just scared of the already strong melee damage in PvP being MSA'd, and all the talented warlocks and PoM mages (whose burst is already harder to deny without proper reflectors/stealth here) getting a serious step up in itemisation. It's inevitably going to happen but there's no reason to hand out the Plagueheart set on a silver platter. I really do believe that raising the bar will prolong the server though, or at the very least, it will force players to have to log in two or three times a week, rather than show up for just the one evening when the game gets buttfucked.

 

[Sarei]

@roarnstuff

Sure there wasn't much competition, but if they released everything in 2011, the server would die in 2012. This way people had an initiative to keep playing.

What strategy lol? And noone would disband or quit because of that. Every Vanilla raider's dream is to kill KT, I doubt anyone would quit and leave the instance unfinished after 13 or 14 bosses. But it would give players an initiative to play those extra few months, thus prolonging server's life with Naxx around for a little while. If it gets killed on the first day, in the next few weeks half of the server will quit.

Again, noone would leave because of that, wrote why above. My reasoning is that I enjoy doing stuff with friends in-game, so why not for another year, rather then 4-5 months if KT is available since the first day? It has nothing to do with gear, just making it possible to play for a bit longer on a server we all chose and prefer rather any other out there.

Delaying C'Thun would make no sense and have no effect at all since there's a whole new raid coming up next - something to keep people playing. But after KT there is nothing else, you can kill it on release day and watch the server crumble down in the following few weeks, or you can make a gap of couple months between last 2-3 bosses and enjoy a decently populated server with Naxx around for a little while.


But I guess your goal is to do exactly that, kill KT the same week they release Naxxramas and quit in the following days. Do not stress about it tho, considering that staff made a decision to release everything at once (doubt anything I wrote will make a difference at all), you will probably be able to do so. It's just gonna be bullshit for the sever as a whole. So much effort to script that Naxxramas and then watch the server die within a month is sad.

 

[roarnstuff]

@roarnstuff

Sure there wasn't much competition, but if they released everything in 2011, the server would die in 2012. This way people had an initiative to keep playing.

That's all speculation because the only server that ever did release it released it after like 5 years. And everyone sticks with the old server because of that initiative you mentioned. Oh wait. No they don't. The continually reroll fresh servers.

What strategy lol? And noone would disband or quit because of that. Every Vanilla raider's dream is to kill KT,

You see in this raid called Naxx there are 4 wings. Each wing has different bosses of different difficulties. And each wing can be cleared in any order the players choose. For all the 4th graders reading; this means choosing in which order to do the wings could mean the difference between first and not first.

Every raiders dream is to kill KT. Yeah okay. Every raider says that but then every raider rerolls fresh servers. Even though none of them stand even the slightest chance, one of the reasons for that is the race. And speaking of the race all the top guilds on Kronos are interested in seeing who gets first 2nd 3rd so on. Will they quit over it? Who knows. What I do know is with the delay basically the first guild to zone in will get first KT and that is stupid as shit.

Again, noone would leave because of that, wrote why above. My reasoning is that I enjoy doing stuff with friends in-game, so why not for another year, rather then 4-5 months if KT is available since the first day? It has nothing to do with gear, just making it possible to play for a bit longer on a server we all chose and prefer rather any other out there.

Did you see my suggestion of refreshing every few years? I think they do this in Diablo or something. Constant delays only make more people quit and reroll nost or some shit TBC server. We could be the first server to have a competently scripted KT (and all other content) and start something great butt no. We continue to die slowly in the name of server preservation. Which is the most retarded thing ever.

Delaying C'Thun would make no sense and have no effect at all since there's a whole new raid coming up next - something to keep people playing. But after KT there is nothing else, you can kill it on release day and watch the server crumble down in the following few weeks, or you can make a gap of couple months between last 2-3 bosses and enjoy a decently populated server with Naxx around for a little while.

Oh if only they had something like.....lets say....The burning fucking crusade coming up next. Then you could keep playing with ur friends. To bad there are absolutely no plans to do that. Nope.

You're talking about release day likes it's server release day. Turns out it's actually not that. It's 'hey we been raiding the same shit for years day' and we want the only raid worth playing vanilla for.

Again. No server has ever released KT. I'm just gonna go ahead and not count peenix. You can only speculate what will happen. You don't know how Kronos will handle it. You don't know what they will do. But what will happen if the delays continue is the 'decent population' (hue) will be no population. You're arguing death by deprivation is better than death by completion.

But I guess your goal is to do exactly that, kill KT the same week they release Naxxramas and quit in the following days. Do not stress about it tho, considering that staff made a decision to release everything at once (doubt anything I wrote will make a difference at all), you will probably be able to do so. It's just gonna be bullshit for the sever as a whole. So much effort to script that Naxxramas and then watch the server die within a month is sad.

You don't know my goals. I have 2 of them. They both require farming Naxx a lot. It's looking like I'll have to roll nost to fulfill my vanilla dreams and I hate those cunts.

Again. You don't know. There is TBC and maybe Kronos has a plan. I mean they would, at that point, be the only server with all content scripted. They could do a lot of things.

Bullshit. Right. More bullshit than all the people who already quit. We had 2 populated servers. A year of delays later we have half a server. Good plan. Lets delay some more. How many of them woulda stuck around for TBC? To see what Kronos had planned? None of them now.

 

[Labathor]

I bet omega is your source)))))))))))))))))

I was in Omega and 4HM was a rough progress, when released, yet alone all the ddos, disconnects, lag spikes.

 

[Topmong]

roarnstuff, what's your problem with feenix KT, out of curiosity?

 

[gly]

Apart from the people who complained about it being too difficult, it seemed to me like the Feenix KT was very well received by the raiding community, with all the other problems on that server considered. I think I'd agree that artificially delaying the release of content might be counterproductive so I'll push the idea again: release the content but vastly increase the HP and raid damage taken, and if the top guild on Kronos is still struggling after half a year - challenge them to give up their WoW addiction and their "vanilla dreams" (lol), or just nerf the fight(s).

 

[Chainsaw]

After a half year... Lol! I think you want to kill the server

 

[rybkos]

I don't think buffing Naxxramas to the point where world buffs are practically required for you to even stand a chance against the bosses is not a good solution.
What's that? 10 people died? Raid wiped? 2 hours ran out? I guess that's it for this week guys. See you next wednesday and don't forget to show up for Ony, BWL and 2 ZG clears so we can buff again next week.
How would you like that?

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

What's that? 10 people died? Raid wiped? 2 hours ran out? I guess that's it for this week guys. See you next wednesday and don't forget to show up for Ony, BWL and 2 ZG clears so we can buff again next week.
How would you like that?

Sounds fine to me. Should always have 5-6 world buff quest items in reserve anyway!

 

[Chainsaw]

Just let the whole stuff as it is and do not add custom changes. If anyone expect vanilla to be something else, he or she shall seek out a fun server.

 

[xos]

Yet again the conversation is blizzlike mechanics vs blizzlike experience...

Everyone who comes in and argues "Vanilla was hard so pservers should be hard" has had their head in the sand for the last 12 years. The point has been argued by blizzard themselves - players are so much more informed about the game today that comparisons now to then will never be apples to apples.

To the point, this change is wholly irrelevant to the longevity of the server. It does literally nothing to help new guilds and pisses off the guilds who actually have been here stockpiling heads and hearts for the express purpose of doing naxxramas with them. And that is to say nothing of Kronos' desire one way or the other to be 'blizzlike'- this suggestion falls squarely into 'fun server' territory.

Either make this change six months ago or not at all. Doing it now is a huge piss off to people who have spent a lot of time and energy with certain expectations.

 

[Slippy]

You know what would shut the server off to new players? Buffing Naxx so much so that you need to be full AQ bis to even have a chance.

Just get Naxx as close to the original as possible. I doubt it will be as easy as some here claim if it's anything close to authentic. So what that AQ is being speed run by certain guilds? They know every detail of Kronos AQ after running it every week for almost a year. Naxx won't be like that for a very long time.

 

[edhris]

ITT people who have never raided naxx.