Disabling world buffs

[bl4ckc0d3r]

You know what would shut the server off to new players?

What new players? Elysium will soon have Naxx too. Maybe even before us the way this is going lately. Any new players will be put off by everyone else being in AQ40 BiS gear anyway. The realm is old - too old.

 

[roarnstuff]

ITT people who have never raided naxx.

This is a PvE thread. Go turtle in AV to piss off the PvE'rs and leave us to our stupid arguments.

roarnstuff, what's your problem with feenix KT, out of curiosity?

Nothing in particular. More a problem with the servers in general. The only vanilla option basically till nost and kronos (rip scriptcraft). Relatively large income generation. Still took ten million years to release content and had no vision. We'd all be playing peenix right now if the place wasn't run by assholes, and kronos is wrapping it's lips around the same, if less corrupt, shotgun barrel peenix snacked on.

Actually Kronos has been fellating that shotgun for a while now. Long enough for nost to shut down, come back, catch up, and threaten to overtake them. We're like a sprinter with no knees. Fortunately we are running against an obese frenchman who was kind enough to have a heart attack halfway through the race and give us the lead. But he's out of surgery now and we are neck and neck once again.

 

[DarkStorm]

Yet another option could be to disable world buffs upon entering naxxramas only the first 100 days after release. This would allow for an exciting release, and let the dps-races with no restrictions unfold at a later point. This would also smoothen the transition into naxxramas for guilds that join Kronos at a later point, and therefore haven't had a chance to farm AQ40 for a year, let's say.

First of all its a privilege to read such an open minded and detailed post from someone on the Kronos team. I really appreciate the sentiment of your post.

The part that I left quoted is what I personally would hope the Kronos team decides on. This leaves Naxxramas a challenge and it becomes a challenge that any guild can participate in that is not based on who has a million summoners placed around the world making them able to walk into naxx with 119 min left on their 2h buffs.

I personally quit the game and the reason I have not returned to raiding with my former guild is because of the logistics of world buffing and how it interferes with actually playing and enjoying the game. Most of all I would consider it very exciting to step into Naxxramas with a real challenge that is not based on brute forcing the raid instance.

I think the poll is poorly done and does not include your suggestion of the 100 days (days can be discussed ofc) and I urge you to do one yourself with clearly constructed options.

 

[OnslaughtFei]

theres videos of my old wow guild from 2006 in naxx with no world buffs and mc/zg/bwl gear clearing plenty of bosses. its not hard.

 

[Oidd]

[offtopic]
a bit offtopic (maybe?) but to continue from what Fei wrote above:

playing in vanilla private servers for the last 5-6 years it never stopped to amaze me how much hardcore pve players/guilds hunt every possible buff before stepping into a raid.
I understad it when trying to set/beat speed records/beat personal records or when progressing new content but for regular raids i honestly fail to see the point. Obviously you want to have some basic buffs/consumables to make the raid easier/faster/more efficient but what is the point of severly outgearing and at the same time buffing to the teeth. (And this come from me that is always going absolutely mad when i see people slacking/going afk/failing to buff/dispel on time even in 5man dungeons.)
It trivializes the raid to a dissapointing degree in my opinion. Where is the interest/challenge in that?


As Fei wrote above i also remember being in a really hardcore guild back in retail vanilla, hunting for realm firsts/fast runs but never had this anxiety to get all buffs and would never really consider logging off the game for a damn 10% buff. We would raid in whatever gear we had since obviously we didnt farm earlier raids for that long for 40 people to have absolute bis gear - i even raided naxx for few weeks in a weird elemental spec for my shaman due to ranking-


Obvioulsy things have changed and raid efficiency is a logical goal in 2017 but maybe a buffed content (like some other private server had done) would be a good idea to both please hardcore pve enthusiasts (that enjoy challenge) and prevent backpedaling-i like to sit in fire- bis geared people to get top-tier loot.

[/offtopic]

 

[OnslaughtFei]

challenge is only good once or every once and awhile.

its hard to make challenge without injecting randomness and unfairness with the structure presented in vanilla wow.

if you want a healthy and continuous raiding population, creating scenarios that require 40 people to have their shit together, be expert and prepared, and defeat very challenging content is not sustainable for any prolonged time. The higher the bar is, the more of a continual chore it is to raid and the exponential increase in player attrition. It's only fun once. if you increase the amount of technical and mechanical skill needed to perform in raids you also increase the amount of organizational and people skill needed to sustain it and the latter is usually a weakness in most guilds.

Side tangent: The only way to have an exciting vanilla server is to roll it out in "season" type content and is the only way repetitive games are able to sustain such long life cycles. Vanilla wow is made to exist for 2 years (roughly 6 months of every raid tier). I would argue that you can only have competition by escalating the timeline and reducing player gear. 3 months of MC into 3 months of BWL into 3 months of AQ40 into 3 months of Naxx and then reset. Dump all chars into a legacy server and start a fresh season. Repeat. People love fresh starts and the challenge in mostly gear-related. Kronos is beyond the 2 year mark and had a fast MC into BWL transition which has made BWL and AQ tiers exhausting to many K1 day 1 guilds/players like onslaught/myself. Kronos should consider a model similar to this in future iterations after scripts have been roughly finalized.

 

[roarnstuff]

[offtopic]
playing in vanilla private servers for the last 5-6 years it never stopped to amaze me how much hardcore pve players/guilds hunt every possible buff before stepping into a raid.
I understad it when trying to set/beat speed records/beat personal records or when progressing new content but for regular raids i honestly fail to see the point.

Something something didn't read most of your post because of lack of understanding. Not lack of me understanding what you wrote, mind, but lack of you understanding the playerbase.

It could be cuz I'm drunk whilst typing this but the guilds that need world buffs to complete content are minimal (rip black label). They do it now (and by 'it' I mean world buffs) to compete on realmplayers (cuz kronos logs sucks a big fat one). Every guild can clear content unbuffed but it's been out for 50 years and they are bored of doing AQ for the 40th fucking time so they pretend realmplayers = skill.

They want Naxx butt have only been able to farm AQ etc for years so they make their own entertainment. Unfortunately that has translated into speedruns = skill thus fishing 10% and all that crap cuz it helps with recruiting tards (which is the majority of recruitable players due to various reasons (anyone that thinks speed runs = skill is a tard make no mistake)), and other reasons, and keeps their dicks hard for a Naxx which will never come.

I don't even remember what you wrote butt basically we need Naxx or the server will die. Have fun running a TBC server when all your players have lost faith and gone to Gummy because he is more reliable (if you don't see the irony then fuck you).

Buffs or no buffs they don't really matter. It all depends on how the content is scripted. Buffs are for post progression dick stroking. At the rate we are going Nost will release Naxx first and the only guild who clears it when it's finally release on Kronos will be the one who can actually get 40 ish people in their raid at release. I'm voting for not vanguad just for the luls. How many piss breaks you got scheduled for Naxx?

Seriously though. You delay again and you lose 5 guilds. Looking forward to that PTR. Hue. How did you let that incompetent bunch of retards running Nost 2 catch up to you? You only had more than a year head start. I look forward to them releasing content a week ahead of you again. Christ. They died, came back, and still have three times your population on only one of their servers if we're being generous.

You could have made something of yourselves. If I didn't hate them so much I'd be glad of their inevitable victory. I hear their Naxx PTR is in July. How's that spider wing coming?

Seriously seriously. They died, were dead for months, came back on a server that didn't release Nefarion for over 7 years and are now on track to release Naxx before us. How did you fuck it up that much? I'd love to see that math.

 

[OnslaughtFei]

I dont think anyone makes a 1 to 1 equation that speed runs = skill. if so its the same dumbasses who think r14 = skill. the reason to play the game is to get gear that have the bigger numbers. they have bigger numbers so you can do bigger numbers. onslaught and its officers dont brag about "speed runs" or boss kill times cause its juvenile, retarded and we know bigger numbers arent a metric of skill. we dont even actually compete that hard with front-to-back clear times that aggressively, mostly trying to get most out of 1 hour buffs. (trust me, if warriors dont have death wish for a boss they make us wait until its up)

but its the only way to sustain a guild in this day and age without causing lots of turnover. if the objective of the game is to get the gear or see the dungeon then once you get the gear you quit or once you see the dungeon you quit. ive done 108 molten core's on my main (we have been doing split mc since october 2015 so not counting my alts), 93 blackwing lairs and 46 AQ40's. i dont want to spend 1 more minute in there if i dont have to.

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

How did you let that incompetent bunch of retards running Nost 2 catch up to you? You only had more than a year head start.

Pretty much what everyone is wondering about.

i dont want to spend 1 more minute in there if i dont have to.

And the point of world buffs and pushing for the max possible DPS explained. Thank you.

 

[roarnstuff]

Side tangent: The only way to have an exciting vanilla server is to roll it out in "season" type content and is the only way repetitive games are able to sustain such long life cycles. Vanilla wow is made to exist for 2 years (roughly 6 months of every raid tier). I would argue that you can only have competition by escalating the timeline and reducing player gear. 3 months of MC into 3 months of BWL into 3 months of AQ40 into 3 months of Naxx and then reset. Dump all chars into a legacy server and start a fresh season. Repeat. People love fresh starts and the challenge in mostly gear-related. Kronos is beyond the 2 year mark and had a fast MC into BWL transition which has made BWL and AQ tiers exhausting to many K1 day 1 guilds/players like onslaught/myself. Kronos should consider a model similar to this in future iterations after scripts have been roughly finalized.

I suggested something like that in this thread.

What's the one thing we know about current players? They love rerolling fresh servers. Why? Who the fuck knows. None of them have a chance at getting server firsts. None. 20 thousand players rolled elysium when it came out. 40 got server first Rag. Is it the race? Who knows. If they just wanted Naxx they would be on Vanilla gaming or peenix. So it's obviously not that. Butt if there was an organization with all the content scripted that organization could get all the players with a new server and a short release time. Open a server. Release the content in a short period. Wait for it to be cleared. Open a new server. Of course all the completionists / people who want full naxx bis / atiesh / whatever need a place too. So you got the constant new server butt you also got 1 old server where everyone can flex their old characters. Just merge the never server with the old ever time it's time to open a new one.

2 servers. 1 new and 1 with all the old characters on it. Expand that to TBC servers and who knows after that. Can't wait till Nost takes advantage of having the first scripted Naxx out. Hue.

 

[roarnstuff]

And the point of world buffs and pushing for the max possible DPS explained. Thank you.

Eh. It's not always that. Although MC does get boring after the bazillionth time. I personally enjoy raiding any raid with guild mates.

Butt for a lot of people it is exactly that. I look forward to Naxx release. Kronos is going to have such a huge population when all the people who promised to come back for Naxx actually come back. :wink::crying::biggrin::sad::laugh::rolleyes2::shifty::yawn::glare:

xdd

Fine.

Their scripts were shit, (I personally liked the way they reinvented razorgore for the modern age) they sold gear for like 200 euros a pop, (idk how much that is in american monies but I'm guessing like a thousand dollars (and I can't afford that so it's totally not fair)) they never fixed stuff unless it personally impacted them, (I slso personally liked honor not having diminishing returns or whatever until after I got r14) corrupt GM's, (rip raptor squad or whatever that guild was (I think they had raptor in the name)) banning whoever whenever wherever, (at least nost pretended like they were being blizzlike or something (they said stinkeyque was created specifically for their server so they are still a bunch of know nothing retards)) releasing content at a snails pace, opening new servers with the promise of actually scripted content (hue) but somehow releasing worse content than they had, (really it's their own fault for rolling on erectile dysfunction butt still a valid point kinda (not really. Player base should have known better by then)) ddossing any server that stood a chance (didn't work on scriptcraft but gummy went ahead and ruined it by himself so it didn't matter really (I guess that one is just good business but they should have used all their money to release actually quality content instead of just using their botnet to make sure there was no competition butt I digress)), blah blah blah blow me.

Looking forward to that PTR

 

[Lenni]

try it without your gear instead of removing buffs

 

[Relada]

.....

Still didnt answer the question about kt

 

[roarnstuff]

try it without your gear instead of removing buffs

I worked hard for my gear, Sir (get it? Cuz it's a game. I'm so clever (and subtle)). Besides, at this point all previous gear has been sold / disenchanted and all the alts are in mostly bis gear. Even my alt warrior has DFT. Bet he has thunderfurry before Naxx comes out.

blah blah blah the race blah blah blah can't actually clear content naked, (mostly regarding tanks and physics maybe (some branch of science certainly)) blah blah blah realmplayers, blah blah blah lack of understanding of playerbase, blah blah blah consider me trolled blah blah blah wish it were that easy.

 

[dms]

Out of curiosity, can someone explain to me how do you measure skill in pve if it isnt metrics or speedruns.

 

[roarnstuff]

Still didnt answer the question about kt

Not very well scripted (although that is from a current viewpoint (our standards have been raised considerably since the dark ages (I had tons of fun on scriptcraft (not valkyrie (big difference)) but if a server of that quality was release today it would be ridiculed mercilessly by entitled millennials (it still sucked though))). Released ten million years too late (which one of the 5 guilds left on that server were you in?). Then all the stuff about the servers and who was running them. Other stuff I'm probably forgetting.

I guess that's it. Does seem like a pretty short list now that I look at it. Maybe when Kronos releases its Naxx is Q3 :biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::laugh::laugh::lol::biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::lol::biggrin::laugh::biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::laugh::biggrin::laugh::lol::biggrin::laugh::lol: I'll have some perspective.

 

[Brezel]

Out of curiosity, can someone explain to me how do you measure skill in pve if it isnt metrics or speedruns.

There is a lot of skill to be seen in PVE as well. Mostly it is when stuff gets fucked up first, and then the "skilled" players make teh difference in saving the situation, improvising, changing on the fly, adapting etc. A raid going good does not need too much of it ( after you pass the threshold needed for said instance). That is one of the fun things in PuGs tbh

 

[roarnstuff]

Out of curiosity, can someone explain to me how do you measure skill in pve if it isnt metrics or speedruns.

Metrics? What are you? An asshole?

Speedruns are a nice way to pass the time and certainly take some skill butt that is content that has been farmed for years. You can go fast and do a bazillion deeps on content after you've gotten it timed to the nanosecond. True skill (and this is just my opinion mind) is shown by who can clear new (relatively speaking) content first. It comes from players abilities to react and adjust. To do what needs to be done in the moment. Not just repeat the same rotation with slightly better gear / timing / whatever.

Unfortunately the opportunity to prove this comes like once every never (looking forward to Naxx hue). Did you know the top DPS on the world first Illidan kill was a mage? If you know anything about TBC you'd know how fucking embarrassing this should have been for every warlock hunter rogue in the guild but it wasn't. Because it was first.

Best DPS out of ten thousands players on old Nost was monkeyjews or maitoz or something (I don't remember actually but I do remember it wasn't anyone who actually cleared content first). Best speed clears out of a thousand guilds was NOPE (They still hold the MC record after having quit months ago). Half their guild was rank 14s (I don't actually know the actual number but it was quite a few (in the teens)). Butt when it actually came down to it they always lost. They blew a half an hour head start on BWL release. How much did all that DPS help them the one time it actually mattered? How much did all that speed amount to when they really needed it? Vangord has a BWL record yet unbeaten. They set it pre AQ (I think (not sure)). Not a single server first (no offense (brb piss)). Who's always the best and the fastest months later? Who has the best DPS on content they've done 100 times? Has it ever paid off when it counts?

Speed runs and meters are toys and tools for people to play with while we all wait for new (relatively speaking) content. Unfortunately it has come to a point where the wait has become so long that these toys are all we have so people start adding false accolades to them and forget what it really takes to be a good player.

Speed runs and DPS take skill. No doubt about it. Butt it's a lesser skill (slightly lesser).

 

[OnslaughtFei]

Out of curiosity, can someone explain to me how do you measure skill in pve if it isnt metrics or speedruns.

Skill technically cannot be measured in any form of reliable all-encompassing metric; however, the metrics do give insight into a lot of correlating attributes in relation to skill. The metrics are always only a measurement of the actual act itself and can never provide context. If someone is extremely skilled at running a 100 meter dash or can climb a rope to the top in record speeds does that mean they have the toolset necessary to overcome an obstacle course?

The word skill itself is nebulous at best. Often time, in World of Warcraft, people mean things like mental agility, reaction time, and focus. Unfortunately there are a lot of other skills that contribute to being good in WoW. Your situational awareness, ability to delegate, ability to listen, ability to process a hierarchy of mental queues and arrange those tasks in a proper order in real time, ability to network with other players, ability to read other players actions, natural internal timer sense, the conscientiousness to be prepared for a raid and all situations, the ability to remain clear headed for when things are right, wrong, managing trinkets, cooldowns, etc... the ability to defuse a situation between conflicting temperaments in other players, ability to track on screen and off screen objects, endurance, attention-span, ability to re-write muscle memory, real time adaptive spacial awareness, abstract conceptual formulation, ability to articulate verbally scenarios or information accurately and immediately, etc..........

Having said all that, let me explain a few scenarios where the metrics would be lying if they were used purely as a barometer of skill. This comes from someone who brings great attention to how people are performing.

Situation #1: Patchwerk. 3-4 tanks have normal hit points but the other 36ish raiders are at 1 hit point. If a healer is #1 on healing but only healed everyone other than tanks for the duration of the fight then that player actually contributed nothing as the mechanics of Patchwerk only deal damage to the main tank and hateful strike targets. The metrics would indicate he is the "most skilled". Lesson: While a 1 equals a 1 objectively with no context, the context creates a highly complicated formula in which the value of 1 hit point healed on a tank is infinitely more valuable than 1 hit point healed anywhere else.

Situation #2: Warrior is on top of DPS meters on Flamegore. Warrior steals aggro for a split second and being attacked which crits, giving him an enrage proc and allowing him to deal excessive amounts of damage. Unfortunately it also timed exactly with a shadow flame and half the raid dies. He is still number 1 for DPS for all time; however, metrics do not reflect his ability to naturally have perceptual awareness of his threat and the timers of shadow flame, causing harm to the rest of the raid.

I could come up with a million of examples from lack of totem twisting, to not saving energy to kick as a rogue, to dispelling non-essential debuffs like mana ignite on warriors during Baron Geddon, not measuring the perfect timed powerword shield or natures swiftness, etc... you get the point.

The metrics are important and they do reflect aspects of skill but they do not measure skill.

 

[Chainsaw]

Situation #3: A player is #5 on dps meters in legacy logs overall damage. He had connection problems and disconnected for 15 minutes but had a flask running while the rest of the raid didn't. Meters are very vague here as well unless you really dig them up.

Situation #4: A mage does 2000 dps on Chromaggus. Tank dies because nobody decurses and Chromaggus wipes half the raid before he dies.

 

[dms]

Thanks for the answers fei and co. Good examples.

True, skill is something that is hard to measure so let me rephrase:

How would you define who is the best player/guild if not metrics and speedruns etc.

Isnt that what every guild and player stacking buffs is trying to do, to be the best? Or maybe you are just trying to have fun by competing and competing usually means trying to be the best at something. And being the best at something usually corrrelates fairly well with being the most skilled although it is not synonymous.

Furthermore why is ahlaundoh only the 2nd best warrior on kronos?

 

[Chainsaw]

I think pvp is a nice way to measure skill because it involves mental quickness, communication and teamplay.

 

[OnslaughtFei]

How would you define who is the best player/guild if not metrics and speedruns etc.

Unfortunately its all subjective, like it or not, because the ultimate goal of WOW is to have fun. I think the more competitive attitudes in some guild leaderships have created ecologies withing their respective guilds that promote performance based behavior but I dont really believe a best can exist in simply 1 level of analysis. I am aware that onslaught holds a substantial amount of competitive metrics but ultimately boss kill-time records, average clear times, record clear times, efficiency, guild turnover, guild morale, guild performance, etc.. are all separate aspects to analyze and while 1 guild might be the best at 1 killing a particular boss, they might not have been the first to do so and "best" becomes the eye of the beholder.

Obviously I think "speed runs", DPS records, boss kill times, and the like are important because they keep myself and a lot of my close friends interested. I'm just not pretentious about it enough to act like it means were more skilled, ive seen low tier DPS'ers from other guilds join onslaught and then excel after the platform that we've built give them a chance to pull out insane numbers. I say to any new recruit that onslaught is not the best guild nor the best 40 players in a raid to ever exist in vanilla. We may have 10 very skilled and knowledgeable players and 30 semi-competent ones that have mostly the right attitude enough to half-pay attention for an hour while we raid and not fuck up too much. Price's Law if you will.

Furthermore why is ahlaundoh only the 2nd best warrior on kronos?

After Jonezy?

 

[Oidd]

skill is hard to measure indeed judging by meters alone.
a mage casting fireballs when he should be decursing looks nice(r) on meters but is shit
healers using QH(or anything similar crap) can produce sick healing to boost the meters while they are actually healing pets or range dps when main tank is dying (and dont get me started on healers refusing to dispel/cleanse or drop proper totems)
rogues mindlessly spamming sinister strike having no energy to kick are shit

and lets not forget that ret paladins are shit no matter what:tongue:.

 

[Allor]

Vangord has a BWL record yet unbeaten. They set it pre AQ (I think (not sure)). Not a single server first

That BWL record can't be beaten since some of the mobs that were skipped now can detect invisibility.

Vanguard do have server first Twins though, and they were 1 minute 50 seconds behind Synced on C'thun.