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Nerf Ironfoe

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Slippy said:
Nerfed. Set to 1PPM.
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[FONT=&amp]There is no "PPM" timer and never has been, it isn't a game mechanic but rather a way for players to understand things.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]PPM is just a way of comparing different procs, and is defined as the average number of procs over one minute of just autoattacks.

I just wanted to clear that up but the ironfoe nerf is good. Should have done this ages ago but at least it's before naxx.[/FONT]
 
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dang it man! we gave all our TF bindings to Rogues cause Ironfoe was a better tanking weapon! what i do now? :whistling:
 
Chero said:
Again, I don't know what's wrong with you, no one stated anything is going to change. All I said is that we are looking for evidence. There is nothing going to be changed unless we don't have strong enough proof required for any change. I kindly please you, once again, stop your trash talk.
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I got respect for you Chero as a dev and I know many people feel Ironfoe should have been nerfed. I dont own one myself but I know the pain of farming for one.

From what I can see todays nerf was impleneted very quickly after Nedstark spammed the world chat on the PTR. I dont see any new evidence that has surfaced since this discussion was had in november or the alkazam comment with someone claiming the proccrate was 2.7%.

Could you perhaps expand on what prompted the change today? What new strong enough proof have you found? Or is this a decision more of balance instead of something backed by evidence?
 
DarkStorm said:
I got respect for you Chero as a dev and I know many people feel Ironfoe should have been nerfed. I dont own one myself but I know the pain of farming for one.

From what I can see todays nerf was impleneted very quickly after Nedstark spammed the world chat on the PTR. I dont see any new evidence that has surfaced since this discussion was had in november or the alkazam comment with someone claiming the proccrate was 2.7%.

Could you perhaps expand on what prompted the change today? What new strong enough proof have you found? Or is this a decision more of balance instead of something backed by evidence?
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The isn't strong evidence either way. All we can ask for in Ironfoe's case is a best guess. It's pretty obvious, comparing it to similar weapons, that it shouldn't have had such a high proc rate.
 
I don't have it either, but would have been nice to have an announcement about a change in like 2 id's, or perhaps with the merge like done with TF, so people using it could have gotten some other weapons in the mean time, so you know, can plan stuff out? ;)
 
I do agree with the nerf, it had to happen eventually, but it would be nice to get some more sword drops in BWL/AQ40 now that Ironfoe is being nerfed. Since the release of AQ our guild has only gotten 2 CTS, 2 Maladath and 0 AQR drops, all of which went to rogues, leaving our fury's empty handed. Ironfoe being viable helped our guild cope with the lack of sword drops significantly and now there will be even more competition over items that never seems to drop.
 
Maybe this is a step in right direction to finally take a look at class related procs as well.. Frostbite, Improved Concussive Shot, WF, poisons, Blackout, Impact etc., etc.. Basically any proc there is, on Kronos is just as crazy as Ironfoe was..
 
It can clearly be seen how this nerf benefits more established guilds over newer guilds who have not had as much time to obtain weapons or have been unlucky with bad drops. Farming Ironfoe was a way for newer guilds to catch up since there was no weekly lockout to hold them back from progressing. If this nerf will come before be the release of Naxx, it will give established guilds an even bigger advantage in the race for server firsts, specifically the Horde, since they do not benefit as much from Ironfoe as much as Alliance and were the main supporters of this nerf. Nerfing it as this point would set back a lot of people who are ready and waiting for Naxx release, it seems like a better time to nerf it would be after the server first race as it would not hinder the ability of guilds who’s members are using it to compete in Naxx.
 
Wastegate said:
It can clearly be seen how this nerf benefits more established guilds over newer guilds
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Our AQ40 raid: http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=57354
Excell's weapons: http://armory.twinstar.cz/character-sheet.xml?r=Kronos&cn=Exception

Don't see any swords, but a crappy AQ20 mace. There are far better fury non-sword weapons to obtain.

Maybe this nerf was for the best, honestly, since Ironfoe was lowering the skill bar of an already "keyboard faceroll" class/spec even further. Not being able to run out of rage allowed for far dumber playstyle while still getting away with high numbers.
 
While SPH may be a viable option, especially with Anubisath Warhammer, it is still not readily available as an immediate replacement to all fury warriors who were using Ironfoe. I was lucky enough to have stashed SPH in my bank, expecting Ironfoe to get nerfed eventually, but I'm sure other fury warrior who are using Ironfoe will not be as fortunate.
 
The qiraji regalia warhammer, qiraji armaments axe, Death's Sting, pugio, Vis'kag, CTS, AQR, Cruk'Shorukh...

I bet that Ironfoe with 4% proc chance instead of 10% is still better weapon than some on the list above.

2.4 speed -> 1.85 with Flurry up.

60 / 1.85 = 32 white hits in a minute.
60 / 6 = 10 Bloodthirsts in a minute.
60 / 10 = 6 whirlwinds in a minute.

Let's assume you do no overpowers and hamstrings. That's 48 strikes against the target in a minute. With 4% chance, that's 2 procs in a minute. Previously it was 4.8 procs in a minute. So instead of 9 extra white hits in a minute, you get 4. So you lose 5 white hits in a minute. That's around... 2-3k damage from the attacks and you also lose some rage that you would dump into heroic strikes.

Heroic Strike adds 157 damage to weapon damage and makes the attack immune to miss (since everyone has at least 8% hit on their gear). This guy, for example, has 14% hit, which means 13% miss chance on MH. So out of those 32 white hits, 32 * 0.13 = 4 attacks will be missed that might be otherwise saved by using heroic strike on them. Assuming you had full rage available to turn every single auto attack into a heroic strike before the nerf, and none after the nerf, the difference is the following:
  • 32 * 157 = 5024 damage from adding bonus heroic strike damage.
  • 4 * ~550 damage from missing 4 auto attacks = 2200
  • 5 * ~550 damage from losing extra 5 white hits from Ironfoe proc change = 2750
So over a minute, assuming you can't do even a single heroic strike after the nerf, you lose 9974 damage.

But let's be honest, over a minute, with full world buffs, almost 90% of your auto attacks can be converted into heroic strikes using normal weapons - not Ironfoe. So let's make the above numbers more realistic:
  • 3 * 157 = 471 damage lost from heroic strike bonus damage.
  • 1 * 550 damage from missing auto attacks = 550
  • 5 * 550 damage from losing extra white hits from Ironfoe proc change = 2750
So you lose max around 3-4k damage over a minute. So Ironfoe warriors' DPS goes from around 880 to 820 DPS. Oh my, poor souls.
 
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