• Dear Guest,

    You're browsing our forum as a Guest meaning you can only see a portion of the forum in read-only mode.
    To view all forum nodes and be able to create threads/posts please register or log-in with your existing account.

    TwinStar team

Nerf Ironfoe

Status
Not open for further replies.
@ Fei: Are you saying that because of how it "feels" or did you do the calculation? Since the former does not mean anything, and I would like to compare the latter with mine.
 
Well it's a complicated assessment to make but we have tested in numerous ways and to be frank its a night and day difference and self-evident when Ironfoe is used (low dps) vs a 60+ dps 1hand. Our tanks DPS in what is normally considered head to toe fury gear, meaning by far the majority of their rage gen comes from being hit and being hit extremely hard. Windfury has a built-in internal cooldown of 3 seconds meaning more attacks is not necessarily better but the impact of those hits are crucial. Even with a slower weapon it is still possible and regular to continually keep windfury near constant in relation to the ICD.

So right now we keep our tanks in GCD lock meaning they are stuck on GCD spamming bloodthirst, heroic strike, etc... while main tanking and it far exceeds the low dps of Ironfoe even if you consider its proc. This is mostly due to the fact that all your rage gen comes from being hit and not hitting.

Ironfoe and Thunderfury are both highly overrated in our experience, especially since the latter's debuff slows down incoming rage (and thus incoming threat gen). Keep in mind the only way to test true threat per second is while being crit and crushed on purpose to keep enrage procced and having a constant fuel of rage from being hit hard.
 
WF totem has no 3-sec ICD, neither in patch 1.11 nor patch 1.12.

As for DPS comparison, if you look at the numbers I did in page 11, the proc vs proc, threat wise TF does have more threat than IF but the rage gained (Kalgan's post formula) from the Ironfoe is 4x of that a TF swing in tank gear, provided none of the IF proc swings crit - in that case it would be even more, not to mention IF scales with AP from DPS gear.

If your tanks are using full DPS gear with Fury spec trying to get crushed and critted by boss for rage (lmao @ at this damage tuning) that's a different situation. You're comparing DPS vs Prot Tank at that point.

I agree both are not ideal weapons for Horde. As you're relying on a proc. I personally would be using Deathbringer with Windfury as horde here for the consistent/predictable threat, but that shows you how bad a 15% TF proc is - which is another topic (even retail tanks banked the 15% TF and used other weapons in Naxx, forcing blizz to buff it).

If you're relying on your damage output for rage and not damage taken, in defensive gear, you're better off with a proccing IF for rage. As Horde too if you the proc is there for you. (Excluding rage-capped fights like Twins/Vael)

There's the whole topic of IF still being the top weapon for DPS in AQ40 (as proven via Raidstats on K1+K2) but that just triggers people. Devs are looking at the proc rate, so that should solve the issue of it being BiS atm if changed.
 
Last edited:
WF has an ICD on Kronos.

https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=9135

This was changed months ago:

Just for the record, I don't play any game (including WoW), thus I'm not involved in any guild or whatever. Currently, both Windfury Totem and Weapon have added 3 second ICD. We've discussed this issue with our test team and we feel that the currently patched implementation is right.

Any retail proof that this should not exist on patch 1.12.1 is welcome, and the patch can be easily reverted. Just proof yourself.



Walgrave said:
If your tanks are using full DPS gear with Fury spec trying to get crushed and critted by boss for rage (lmao @ at this damage tuning) that's a different situation. You're comparing DPS vs Prot Tank at that point.

I agree both are not ideal weapons for Horde. As you're relying on a proc. I personally would be using Deathbringer with Windfury as horde here for the consistent/predictable threat, but that shows you how bad a 15% TF proc is - which is another topic (even retail tanks banked the 15% TF and used other weapons in Naxx, forcing blizz to buff it).

If you're relying on your damage output for rage and not damage taken, in defensive gear, you're better off with a proccing IF for rage. As Horde too if you the proc is there for you. (Excluding rage-capped fights like Twins/Vael)
Click to expand...

Our tanks spec whatever does their job the best and the job of a tank is control and only control. Threat and positioning are all that matter. If you want to become a giant turtle and are building your weapon around this notion then what I have to offer is not applicable.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OnslaughtFei said:
WF has an ICD on Kronos.

https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=9135

This was changed months ago:

Just for the record, I don't play any game (including WoW), thus I'm not involved in any guild or whatever. Currently, both Windfury Totem and Weapon have added 3 second ICD. We've discussed this issue with our test team and we feel that the currently patched implementation is right.

Any retail proof that this should not exist on patch 1.12.1 is welcome, and the patch can be easily reverted. Just proof yourself.
Click to expand...

This was reverted the next day. Look at the status changes
 
Benjey said:
This was reverted the next day. Look at the status changes
Click to expand...

Ah, well I stand corrected then. I just recall the doom and gloom among warriors and most shaman at that time and stopped following the issue. This changes little though. Personally I haven't used windfury since before I got HWL as Frostbrand does more damage in my particular pvp setup but for tanks, the lack of an ICD reinforces the top end and actual weapon dps being important.
 
Hello everyone,

Some of you might know me, i am lyniel, one of the few rogues on K1 with ironfoe.

So, it is pretty obvious ironfoe is the best weapon a warrior can dream of but what about rogues?
After all this time with it, i still have a hard time figuring out how close it is to swords because all the rogues in my guild have pretty different gear setups compared to me. Sometimes i manage to beat them, sometimes i don't...
And so far i have passed all the sword drops to my guildmates considering i felt they needed it more than me.

When i talk to rogues about it in the game, some people tell it is worse than a vis'kag when some others tell me it is as good as CTS without any numbers or anything of course.
I am using ironfoe with anubisath warhammer, would a viskag/CTS/AQR + maladath be better? or maybe MUCH better?
Anyone good in theorycraft that could help me out with numbers on it? I am really wondering if it makes sense to keep passing...
Thanks

Btw for warriors, can it really do triple execute? Because for rogue it clearly can't do triple sinister strike ! Just two extra normal white attacks :p
I am also a little worried about that ticket that says that in retail the proc chance was 2,7% instead of the 10% here. Sounds like it will be really impossible to keep up if it gets nerfed.
 
Last edited:
Can't say anything about rogues since the last time I played one was a decade ago with Seal Fate spec lol.

iirc there once a bug on retail that made Ironfoe duplicate the attack which triggered it, so you could get multiple executes for example. That was fixed. On Kronos, Ironfoe's effect is working as intended (giving extra instant white swings).
 
Horo said:
shitpost galore
Click to expand...
few differences for rogue and warrior,

warrior has more AP (AQ evens this out a little)
warriors main damage abilities as fury are not weapon dmg based. ww and op are, but thats neglictible
the additional white dmg from IF gives warriors better rage gain
warriors don't have wep specs for dual wield

these are kind of the main points on why the weapon behaves so differently for both classes

as warrior you pretty much only have to compensate arround 10-15dps for your main hand, while a rogue has to compentsate for so much more (wep talents, SS dmg etc)

how do you compensate the dps loss? ATP
the procc from IF scales with ATP. this is pretty uncommon for items, especially in xpacs.
to make your TCing easier, every ATP for IF is worth arround 20% more

now to your math (have fun btw), check how much dmg you are losing per SS compared to other weapons

lets assume you have 1k (disregarding stats) ATP, IF vs CTS
CTS: 390
IF: 276

each SS loses ~110 dmg
each SS has a 10% chance to land a proc which give your 2x276 -> 55dmg per SS
real loss is ~55dmg now

-55 every 4secs
4/2.4 = 1,666 * 0,1 * 2x276 = 92
-55+92 = 37 additional damage every 4 secs

now it gets a bit tricky, read closely:

1000/14 * 2,6 = 185 (at this point it should be clear that this is just an elaborate shitpost)



TAKE CARE MAN
 
Okay so if i understand well i do 37 more dmg every 4 sec with ironfoe.
But that doesn t take into account sword spec? So i guess the CTS + sword spec completely destroys ironfoe + mace spec?

"1000/14 * 2,6 = 185" you completely lost me here :p
 
Mace spec for a rogue is really really bad and pretty much the only time you should be doing it is if you're a human with two servo arms or something (or for hemo in pvp if you get the mace from Ossirian or smt)). In every other case I can think of swords or even daggers would be better.
 
mozibake said:
Mace spec for a rogue is really really bad and pretty much the only time you should be doing it is if you're a human with two servo arms or something (or for hemo in pvp if you get the mace from Ossirian or smt)). In every other case I can think of swords or even daggers would be better.
Click to expand...

I wouldn t bother having mace spec if i didn t end up winning an ironfoe. I know that with other maces if is VERY bad.
The thing is i managed to beat guildmates pretty often with my ironfoe and my shit spec even thought they had good swords or daggers. Lately thought it has been harder and harder, i feel i rely a lot on luck now to beat them.
I just would like to know what kind of DPS boost i should expect if i get CTS/AQR + maladath, i don't really want to take away those swords from someone if it is to get less than 5% dps increase on my self.
 
Just scour raidstats and Kronos logs for a similarly geared rogue with swords and compare their dps to yours. Keep in mind consumes and world buffs play a huge role in melee dps, so if you are fully consuming and DM buffs and your other guild rogues are not you will beat them even if their weapons are superior.

You really cant compare rogues to warriors for ironfoe, because the way our classes benefit from Ironfoe are very different. Warriors benefit from the extra attacks as not only a 20% white attack dmg modifier (which is shared with rogues) but also 20% extra rage that they can turn into damage. This 20% extra rage if you are world buffed allows warriors to use Heroic Strike on every single MH swing which takes glancing off the table for a huge chunk of your white damage, which is one of the main reasons Ironfoe warriors beat other warriors so badly. That 20% rage generation also directly translates into more execute phase damage. Rogues don't get any of that benefit.

You then add that the only ability that warriors use that benefits from higher MH dmg is overpower, which while useful isn't nearly as much % of our dmg compared to SS for rogues. We also benefit from having much higher AP compared to rogues which is a flat benefit to whatever weapon we use regardless of top end.
 
Last edited:
You then add that the only ability that warriors use that benefits from higher MH dmg is overpower
Click to expand...
And whirlwind.
Not much tho anyway, cause as you mentioned
We also benefit from having much higher AP compared to rogues which is a flat benefit to whatever weapon we use regardless of top end.
Click to expand...
- most of damage(i would say 70% of damage) is comes from AP, and AP doesn't scales with weapon speed on instant attacks. The difference is only in weapon raw damage.

Fury warriors actually shouldn't care much about main hand(/offhand) weapon speed as they do now.
 
GeneralKappa said:
Very substantial argument, shows the level of intelligence of people playing in 10y old game and doing what they been told in guides.
Click to expand...
it shows that even after 11y you have not the slightest clue of the games mechanics. tc is probably wasted on you. thereby "lel" is the only answer I can give you.
 
Lharts said:
lel
Click to expand...
Are you laughing at the fact that this guy told you about normalization?

Your post revealed that you think sinister strike scales more with ap with a
Slower weapon, which is not the case due to http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Normalization.

So the flat dmg difference is the only loss for a rogue on a sinister strike vs 10% chance to do two extra attacks that can also procc poisons (ally )or wf (horde).

I would say that if not for sword specc it would be a great deal better then 59dps swords. I do not have a rogue spreadsheet myself since I don't play rogue in vanilla, but mathematically Intuitively it seems better, and only keeps pulling ahead of swords as it scales better with gear / buffs



Skickat från min ALE-L21 via Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Empirical evidence is not good enough. When I made my own warrior guide months ago, when I got my R14 swords, I did that with the understanding that they're better than Ironfoe. This has been proven to be untrue. If you really want to get anywhere, then I suggest matlab for this kind of procedure.
 
popopidopop said:
Are you laughing at the fact that this guy told you about normalization?
Click to expand...
if you don't get the joke then its probably on you

popopidopop said:
Your post revealed that you think sinister strike scales more with ap with a
Slower weapon, which is not the case due to http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Normalization.
Click to expand...
did you even read the post all the way to the end? lol


since you already took a troll post literally I will go out of my way and show you some real math now.

no AP
IF
(73 + 136) / 2 = 104.4

CTS
((106 + 198) / 2 + ((14 + 14) / 14) * 2.4) / 2 = 152 + 4.8 = 156.8

OHHH SIHT, IST 52DMG not 55

WAIT WAITm, now its crit time.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_strike?oldid=349763
Rogue [AGI / 29]
Click to expand...
CTS hat 14 agi. thats 1 / 29 * 14 crit -> 0.48
156.8 * 1.0048 = 157.5

is actually 53dmg now.


back to the joke. why, and please explain thoroughly, is wep speed unimportant :)))))
 
You are making so many errors in your maths lecture.

The % damage the crit privides is not the same as crit %. Even if we assume that the rogue is not crit capped, which is already very stupid, the %dmg increase would be (for say 48% crit buffed)
1,4848/1,48 which is 1,00324324

So even when calculating crit you fall short, since you can not calculate crit in a vacuum disregarding current crit chance.

Now please go ahead and make more "I was just ironic while doing my maths" posts to save your forums reputation.

Skickat från min ALE-L21 via Tapatalk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom