The Question of Naxxramas Difficulty Vol. 2

[Brezel]

Blizzard was not buffed, but fixed.

Memento Mori is surely one of the lesser guilds you are also talking about, not one of those "special four". 98% of the people here are superhappy with the buffed values and want a challenge and are happy the way it is. Today was the first day since Naxx release on which we used flasks. We will need that perhaps once more, then the epic FR gear is enough to carry it. Lotus get paid for by the AQ20 books we got over the weeks we farmed AQ20 for gear, so nothing super hardcore or anything.

 

[Chainsaw]

And what 4 guilds are that? Oh yeah the ones shouting from the rooftops for buffs because they had full bis and an insane stockpile of consumes. So we buffed the crap out of content to appease those 4 guilds and they blew through it anyways. Meanwhile back in reality the regular folks are going to run out of flasks in a month or so, not to mention keeping up with using 20+ protection pots a week at a minimum.

Again, its fundamentally an extra level of frustration to be wiping or using 2 flasks extra a week because of CUSTOM damage. Lets see how healthy the server is in a month. I was right about Naxx being plenty difficult even if blizzlike, but no you HAD to buff the damage.

How many guilds killed Sapphiron this week after blizzard was buffed? One?

The only place where you MAYBE need flasks are loatheb, sapph and kt. Patchwerk gets killed by so many guilds and can even be killed by guilds who have 13k raid dps.
For loatheb if your raid dps is too low, a supreme power for the few casters can help. For sapphiron you just need the epic frr gear, which will gives you so many HP that you do not even need Titans any more and makes the boss a tactics execution.
Kt is also only tactics execution but I agree that caster dos could also need a flask here until all raid runs in enough t3.
So basically you can clear everything up to loatheb, use a flask, kill him and then advance to sapph.

P.s. this comes from a guy who is unpopular for supporting a nerfed naxx so that everyone can experience it.

 

[tristan]

And what 4 guilds are that? Oh yeah the ones shouting from the rooftops for buffs because they had full bis and an insane stockpile of consumes.

2 of those 4 guilds are actually "lesser" ones... And like it was already mentioned, another "lesser" one killed Sapp with the fixes too.
/facepalm

 

[Slippy]

2 of those 4 guilds are actually "lesser" ones... And like it was already mentioned, another "lesser" one killed Sapp with the fixes too.
/facepalm

Can you do it next week again though? Overcoming these bosses is fun. It's the weekly preparation that is the problem. Titan's is mandatory on Horde for Sapph and KT since we don't have Kings to buff our HP pools.

 

[varth]

That's the thing, people are still riding the Naxx hype train because it's not been out for too long. In a month when people are not riding the hype it will be a different story.

I'm not even complaining for myself, I play this game too much and farm enough to go full consumes on 2 servers every week. But I recognize that not everyone plays the game as much as I do, and I want to be able to continue to raid naxx for months and months. The issue is I don't see that being realistic with how much consumes are required due to the buffed dmg output of bosses.

You guys gave me the same exact pushback when I was pushing for blizzlike dmg values, and I was right about that. Not looking forward to saying I told you so in a month when guilds start struggling to find 40 once the hype is gone.

 

[Lildyo]

Copy/pasting what I wrote in Kronos discord

- I think 90% of the server is unanimous about not reintroducing world buffs at any point in the near future (within the next 3 months).
- Trash nerfs are worth considering and were not brought up in the poll options. At this point, most guilds have no issues with the trash damage/abilities (minus Grobbulus trash). They only serve to extend raid times. Nerf the trash HP to normal values, but you could even leave the damage as is so people can't ignore serious mechanics. Based on forum feedback, that seems to be something most would support
- Most guilds have no issues with Spider wing, construct quarter, military quarter, or plague quarter. I don't think you guys should be worrying as much about those bosses (maybe just Loatheb?)
- Sapphiron currently requires a lot more FR and consumables than blizzlike. It's killable by most guilds though. Worth evaluating values, but maybe not for at least a month and possibly only in incremental nerfs.
- KT in it's current state requires full flasks+pots to survive certain abilities, even with bis gear. if nerfs are very conservative, looking at the aoe frost bolt and ice blast abilities should be the first thing you do, as those are pretty much guaranteed deaths when simultaneously used on one player, unless that person has full flask+pots.

Overall, the difficulty is mostly fine right now, but the consumable farming necessary for certain buffed bosses will become increasingly more tedious as the weeks go on and players' individual stockpiles dwindle.

 

[shard]

Copy/pasting what I wrote in Kronos discord


- Most guilds have no issues with Spider wing, construct quarter, military quarter, or plague quarter. I don't think you guys should be worrying as much about those bosses (maybe just Loatheb?)
- Sapphiron currently requires a lot more FR and consumables than blizzlike. It's killable by most guilds though. Worth evaluating values, but maybe not for at least a month and possibly only in incremental nerfs.
- KT in it's current state requires full flasks+pots to survive certain abilities, even with bis gear. if nerfs are very conservative, looking at the aoe frost bolt and ice blast abilities should be the first thing you do, as those are pretty much guaranteed deaths when simultaneously used on one player, unless that person has full flask+pots.
.

All three of the points are wrong. Well, ok, the first point is true, but true to the point where a lot of bosses in those wings are easier than they should be. A number of people are of the opinion that such bosses need to be buffed, not simply left untouched.

Sapphiron does not require more FrR and consumables than blizzlike. Did you ever attempt or kill Sapphiron in retail? I killed it a dozen times back then, and I'm 100% certain the Kronos version only feels difficult right now (for some guilds) because they're trying to kill it with less frost resist gear than intended. The same was the case back in retail. My guild wasn't able to kill it until practically every player in the raid had a full set of epic frost resist gear. Guilds on Kronos are trying to kill it with a bare minimum of frost resist, to make up for the lack of frost resist, they're forced to go hard on consumables, and bring extra healers in. As each guild gets more frost resist gear, the consumable and healer requirements will both decline significantly.

Kel'thuzad does not require flasks or certain pots to live. They help, just like most other bosses, but no, they are not required. Not sure where you came up with that idea, since your guild hasn't even attempted the boss yet. Titans actually increases the amount of healing required to keep players alive through Frost Blast, so as long as you don't have issues with keeping the raid up between Frostbolt volleys (cough frost resist gear), they definitely are not needed. Frost Blast + volley combo is a confirmed bug which we were told was fixed, resurfaced again last week, and was reported as a bug a second time. Not sure if it's been fixed again yet or not, but yea, it shouldn't ever happen.

 

[Slippy]

FrR isn't the issue on Sapph. It's mostly the buffed damage on Ice Block which is not able to be resisted (for obvious reasons).

 

[Lildyo]

All three of the points are wrong. Well, ok, the first point is true, but true to the point where a lot of bosses in those wings are easier than they should be. A number of people are of the opinion that such bosses need to be buffed, not simply left untouched.

Sapphiron does not require more FrR and consumables than blizzlike. Did you ever attempt or kill Sapphiron in retail? I killed it a dozen times back then, and I'm 100% certain the Kronos version only feels difficult right now (for some guilds) because they're trying to kill it with less frost resist gear than intended. The same was the case back in retail. My guild wasn't able to kill it until practically every player in the raid had a full set of epic frost resist gear. Guilds on Kronos are trying to kill it with a bare minimum of frost resist, to make up for the lack of frost resist, they're forced to go hard on consumables, and bring extra healers in. As each guild gets more frost resist gear, the consumable and healer requirements will both decline significantly.

Kel'thuzad does not require flasks or certain pots to live. They help, just like most other bosses, but no, they are not required. Not sure where you came up with that idea, since your guild hasn't even attempted the boss yet. Titans actually increases the amount of healing required to keep players alive through Frost Blast, so as long as you don't have issues with keeping the raid up between Frostbolt volleys (cough frost resist gear), they definitely are not needed. Frost Blast + volley combo is a confirmed bug which we were told was fixed, resurfaced again last week, and was reported as a bug a second time. Not sure if it's been fixed again yet or not, but yea, it shouldn't ever happen.

You will never find the majority of the server in support of buffing anything in Naxx more than it already is.

It's great that you think you're on your own island at that no one who hasn't killed Sapph and gotten to KT could possibly know what KT is like, when not only are there numerous VODs available of guilds on Kronos killing KT, but many of us actually have friends in Risen and other guilds that we've talked to who have experienced it. It's quite clear those fights are a big consumable drain--which they should be when guilds are first learning new content. I'm not disputing the merits of having difficult bosses that require a lot of consumables and effort to learn and kill. I'm actually quite please with the difficulty Sapph currently poses, and I'd like to have the chance of killing KT before any nerfs to him happen.

However, 4... 5... 6 months from now? Most guilds don't want to have to continue farming lots of consumables each week just to down bosses. It's great that you want everything to be as hard as possible for all of eternity while guilds are going to keep getting demotivated from not being able to clear content and die. I know you don't care about that and it's pretty blatant you don't give a damn if every other guild died as long as Risen is having fun. This is coming from the guy who was about to take all his toys and quit the server if the devs didn't cater to his demands for buffed content. You got your way--and apparently that wasn't enough to satisfy you either.

I was in favour of buffed content and no world buffs, and I still am. Some guilds were strongly for it, and some weren't. Those that were for buffed content got their way. Once most guilds have Sapph and KT dead and on farm, keeping that content buffed indefinitely just further increases the burden a lot of guilds have to farm full consumables weeks and months on end. I know the thought of rock hard content gets you off, but some of us don't want to spend a year having to worry about raiders having flasks and consumables each week while we farm Naxx til Kronos TBC. Given that you've expressed your disapproval of the Kronos development team and have been constantly waffling over whether to disband Risen and quit the server for most of the year (I'm aware this was an internal guild discussion), why should your opinion matter more than those of players in other guilds who would prefer to spend their days farming an easier Blizz-like Naxx so that we don't have to worry about pots and flasks and shit. I highly doubt you have any intention of sticking around til Kronos TBC, but for those of us that do have plans to stick around for over a year or however long it takes for that to happen, I'd much rather have the original hp/dmg values so that Naxx can be easily farmable within a 4 hour scheduled raid. Guilds don't want to be spending 7-10+ hours every week just to clear all the content. Maybe get your head out of your ass and start thinking about the long-term health of the server

 

[Rockmaster]

You will never find the majority of the server in support of buffing anything in Naxx more than it already is.

It's great that you think you're on your own island at that no one who hasn't killed Sapph and gotten to KT could possibly know what KT is like, when not only are there numerous VODs available of guilds on Kronos killing KT, but many of us actually have friends in Risen and other guilds that we've talked to who have experienced it. It's quite clear those fights are a big consumable drain--which they should be when guilds are first learning new content. I'm not disputing the merits of having difficult bosses that require a lot of consumables and effort to learn and kill. I'm actually quite please with the difficulty Sapph currently poses, and I'd like to have the chance of killing KT before any nerfs to him happen.

However, 4... 5... 6 months from now? Most guilds don't want to have to continue farming lots of consumables each week just to down bosses. It's great that you want everything to be as hard as possible for all of eternity while guilds are going to keep getting demotivated from not being able to clear content and die. I know you don't care about that and it's pretty blatant you don't give a damn if every other guild died as long as Risen is having fun. This is coming from the guy who was about to take all his toys and quit the server if the devs didn't cater to his demands for buffed content. You got your way--and apparently that wasn't enough to satisfy you either.

I was in favour of buffed content and no world buffs, and I still am. Some guilds were strongly for it, and some weren't. Those that were for buffed content got their way. Once most guilds have Sapph and KT dead and on farm, keeping that content buffed indefinitely just further increases the burden a lot of guilds have to farm full consumables weeks and months on end. I know the thought of rock hard content gets you off, but some of us don't want to spend a year having to worry about raiders having flasks and consumables each week while we farm Naxx til Kronos TBC. Given that you've expressed your disapproval of the Kronos development team and have been constantly waffling over whether to disband Risen and quit the server for most of the year (I'm aware this was an internal guild discussion), why should your opinion matter more than those of players in other guilds who would prefer to spend their days farming an easier Blizz-like Naxx so that we don't have to worry about pots and flasks and shit. I highly doubt you have any intention of sticking around til Kronos TBC, but for those of us that do have plans to stick around for over a year or however long it takes for that to happen, I'd much rather have the original hp/dmg values so that Naxx can be easily farmable within a 4 hour scheduled raid. Guilds don't want to be spending 7-10+ hours every week just to clear all the content. Maybe get your head out of your ass and start thinking about the long-term health of the server

What i am thinking is, if saph and KT is even ment to be farmed. On my server in retail vanilla, no guild killed KT and i am not sure about saph. I had friends on other realms were KT wasnt killed either. It is ibtended to be super hard and time consuming. Why not just live with it. Just kill it once a month or so. Atleast it makes those uber strong items from the, last two bosses a bit more rare and maybe pvp atleast somewhat less pointless.

 

[varth]

People like Rockmaster and Shard who want content gated because people were not as good at this game 12 years ago just kills me. Forgive me for wanting to be able to reasonably kill a boss without getting screwed by custom damage so you can attempt to make killing KT like retail vanilla. I'm sorry more than 1% of us want to be able to kill KT.

This custom damage is going to beat down the bottom 50% of the raiders on this server until they quit.

 

[Etech]

I think it will break many guilds if kt and sapph will stay that strong. The rest of the bosses I find kinda killable and trash, too if you have the right tactics.

It will give them something to stay together for...

 

[Rockmaster]

People like Rockmaster and Shard who want content gated because people were not as good at this game 12 years ago just kills me. Forgive me for wanting to be able to reasonably kill a boss without getting screwed by custom damage so you can attempt to make killing KT like retail vanilla. I'm sorry more than 1% of us want to be able to kill KT.

This custom damage is going to beat down the bottom 50% of the raiders on this server until they quit.

I want to kill kt as much as anyone else. My comment was targeted towarsa ppl that complain that it does not feel like back in the days. Back then alot of ppl felt locked out of the content.

The question is if people want the exact same feeling of beeing of beeing too weak for clearing naxx as in 2007, or if they want a second chance in clearing it.
I personally am for a second chance, but kt and saph should not be easily farmable for anyone without putting some effort in it.

 

[tristan]

Sapp and KT are being slowly nerfed each week by getting new gear from all the other bosses that are being killed in a weekly basis (even if they are actually buffed too) by most guilds without major problems or consumables sink. The last 2 bosses of whole vanilla were never intented to be farmed "easily". People who argue that they should be nerfed or brought down to blizzlike values just don't have patience, or only want to benefit themselves in some way. For now and until you get more gear, if you want to kill those 2 bosses in a weekly basis too you are obligated to burn consumes, deal with it.

 

[sabatha]

I absolutely do not understand this poll and comments in this topic.
When I started to play on Kronos, I was very happy of pure vanilla blizzlike experience which means PURE VANILLA BLIZZLIKE EXPERIENCE! As a player I had zero problem to accept this fact. I'm sorry, but go away with your ideas about what is right or what is wrong. I do not care what your ideas are and what you want. So what will you introduce next time? Flying mounts, balancing of classes, TBC talent trees or RDF?
Who the hell care about the future of Kronos if you can not give players what you promised 2 years ago ...

 

[Dmnk]

I absolutely do not understand this poll and comments in this topic.
When I started to play on Kronos, I was very happy of pure vanilla blizzlike experience which means PURE VANILLA BLIZZLIKE EXPERIENCE! As a player I had zero problem to accept this fact. I'm sorry, but go away with your ideas about what is right or what is wrong. I do not care what your ideas are and what you want. So what will you introduce next time? Flying mounts, balancing of classes, TBC talent trees or RDF?
Who the hell care about the future of Kronos if you can not give players what you promised 2 years ago ...

Well thanks for your opinion but mine is quite contrary to yours. If I understand you correctly u just want a server where every number ingame is exactly like it was in retail vanilla? Well not going to happen, I'm quite sure those classic servers by blizzard will not deliver what you seek.
In my opinion the Kronos team acts, like Blizzard would act if they would provide the Kronos server with the knowledge we players have today. So in my opinion you get quite a blizzlike experience! You always can play on that other server with more correct numbers, if that is what u desire... u got to live with the drama then too. And admins and drama like that have nothing to do with blizzlike but just my two cents.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

 

[Amoonir]

People like Rockmaster and Shard who want content gated because people were not as good at this game 12 years ago just kills me. Forgive me for wanting to be able to reasonably kill a boss without getting screwed by custom damage so you can attempt to make killing KT like retail vanilla. I'm sorry more than 1% of us want to be able to kill KT.

This custom damage is going to beat down the bottom 50% of the raiders on this server until they quit.

Yo guys, Cymbeline from Lost in Sauce here. Our guild is having a great time clearing Naxx, have not really come across a problem except for clearing already killed content to make room for the later half, but that will come with time/gear. World buffs for naxx is a horrible idea, just a waste of time. As for consumes, the rng factor to plaguebloon takes a huge weight off most of our raiders shoulders (at least for me, where my herber gets shit on by alliance everywhere I camp:^]). Trash damage is high, but overall we get better every week with little to no deaths on trash aside from full on wipes. One big thing i'd like to comment on is bring back ACTUAL HP VALUES, not percentages, knowing how much hp an opponent has, pve or pvp is huge imho. Hmm what else, almost all our raiders aren't even close to bis, 7/15 and hoping for 9/15 this weekend. Personally, i never rauded naxx in vanilla, same goes for most of our core, but this content is so fresh, gives actual challenge and a sense of accomplishment(reminds me of killing an Old God for the first time). Guilds like us, who have not been clearing content for nearly as long as Indecisive, Agony, ONSLAUGHT, we speak in whispers about it throughout Orgrimmar, Thunder Bluff and Undercity. We didn't steamroll through that hollowed place like most other guilds, in it's current state it demands respect, nerfing it now is like spitting in my guilds face, like "You didn't clear the hardest raid in vanilla in 2 weeks? Well let's tune it down to ****** mode for ya."

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

- - - Updated - - -

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway like usual Kronos fashion we get a poll that takes forever to finish its tallying of results and then 2 weeks later an actual decision will be made. IMO the best compromise and this has already been stated multiple times but I just wanted to re iterate so Kronos staff see it is to just NERF THE TRASH NOW and leave all the bosses as is. Trash soaks up a ton of time that guilds could just be spending attempting bosses which is the part they actually enjoy out of the instance anyway. Then later there can be another poll on boss difficulty if the trash nerfs weren't enough but overtime gear will make the instance easier anyway.

 

[mcg]

The trash is fun and fine how it is, facing rolling trash isn't interesting at all

 

[Desplice]

Nerfing trash hitpoints by 30% will hardly make any difference in regard to clear time. Most of the trash dies within a few seconds even with the current buff to HP. I generally have trouble getting more than 2 or 3 casts off before stuff dies.

If the MC/BWL/AQ20/ZG pugs I joined that were started by "lesser" guilds are any indicator, most of the time is lost in between pulls by not marking stuff in advance and just generally taking a lot of time talking between pulls. Loot distribution is also something you can save a lot of time at.

We cleared 3 wings last night in a 4 hour raid with 3 boss wipes. Clearing the whole place in one night is still a bit away but definitely possible, even in it's current state. If not you can always do Sapphiron and KT on a second raid night before proceeding to BWL/AQ40 to get whatever loot you still need from there at this point in raid progression. We can still use stuff from there by the way.

I honestly don't really care if trash hitpoints are nerfed, I just want people to be realistic about what it means in regard to clear times. Just take care Naxx doesn't become the same mindless boring place that BWL and AQ40 turned out to be so please keep the bosses as they are.

 

[tormentor]

Ah fuck..wth, guess we just have to wait for K3. Keep it as it is now, and watch guilds perishing away. There are only a few naxx capable guilds left. Why do you like farming consumables 24/7 is beyond me.

 

[germiona]

Im not sure that this discussion is still active but I have to say
i planning to quit wow after KT kill and looks like it gonna happens soon ™
but i love kronis and I think I found frends
so.. can u buff lich to make him unkillable at all
please
(._.)

 

[hammerlock]

We’re making a few updates to Naxxramas this week. Most notably, we are removing the 15% buff to “trash” auto-attack damage that was applied before launch. Boss-related NPCs such as Feugen, Stallag and the adds on Gothik will remain unchanged.

 

[voidzone]

Feugen and Stallag could've used that change....

 

[stevepelle]

Make it blizzlike please. Blizz employees were paid a very decent salary to design this raid. By going and changing things, you're really just being pretentious.

 

[xibarneyix]

LOL who is forcing you to get world buffs?? exactly nobody is so why take it away for the guilds that do want world buffs...