The Question of Naxxramas Difficulty Vol. 2

[huertakas]

If I had to choose, keep World Buffs away. They ruin the game for 3 reasons:

1. They let you cheeze mechanics, which are awesome in Naxx.
2. DPS will not stop whining if they die and lose them, to you as healers (all guilds know this).
3. They waste 15 minutes of running around and holding d*cks. Why don't world buffs have that 6 hour timer like they did in retail??

So ye remove the hidden buffs. It's lonely at the top for <easy> and <Wipe Club> and <Agony> need their T3 rings as well
Don't care about trash.

 

[lanevegame]

Keep it as hard as possiple, so we won't see every single raider on Kronos full t3 (like it happened with AQ40). Only the few good ones should be able to get that extremely overpowered gear. This way you'll also preserve what is left of PvP on Kronos.

 

[white0rabbit]

Stopped reading after page 5 but I will just quote what Pipfugl wrote and say that majority of <Friends> will completely agree on it.

Spoiler

It seems there haven't been much response from horde in here, and from what I've read, you guys almost seem to feel sorry for us. Yes horde might be harder in PvE, but talking about the difficulty on discord doesn't mean I want it changed.

Let me put it very clear: The majority of our members (Wipe Club) is very happy with the difficulty of Naxxramas. For once we actually experienced the feeling of joy when getting a first boss kill, after having to progress it first. We need to assign people prior to pulls, we need to discuss speccs, roles and use different setups for different bosses. It's all we ever wanted. Thank you.
If you haven't figured already, I voted "Keep it as it is", and I'm certain the majority of my guild would do the same. There is just very few of them, if any, active on these forums. On one condition tho: There needs to be done something with the consumable market - or the availability of consumables. Currently the prices are skyhigh and all available notes are being farmed. Having a real life too, I understand why our raiders struggle to keep up on the consumables for our three raid nights a week.

From what we've encountered so far, these are some of the things I'd like the staff to look into:
- Trash mobs. Maybe you have tuned the damage a bit too high, consider reducing it with 5-10% or maybe just to blizzlike. The HP is fine, doesn't need to be reduced, they die so fast anyways.
- Patchwerks enrage timer isn't an issue for any guilds as far as I know. Maybe tune up his HP a bit more.
- Grobbulus seems very easy to me
- Anub'Rekhan and Faerlina is also very very easy. Some mentioned a HP boost to Maexxna aswell, to counter people dodging the 30-0% enrage timer, I think that is a good idea. We basically just ignore cocoons and zerg her down, not having to worry about web spin.
- Deathknight wing seems propperly tuned - needs no fixing imo. Gothik tuned really nicely, same goes for 4h.
- Noth and Heigan are both easy. Loatheb seems fine, but had expected a tougher fight tbh.
- Don't touch Sapphiron! Finally a fight where healers are pushed to their limits, I fucking love it. The air phase seems a bit fucked tho, ice blocks/blast seems a bit strange, dno how to explain it.
- We had some tries on Kel'Thuzad, from what I've seen ph1 is fine, but the frost bolt volley seemed to hit for shitton. I mean, most of our raid had flasks on from Sapphiron and they nearly got oneshot still. I'm currently considering FrR gear on our raid, but I don't think that should be nessesary?..

So basically:
Decrease trash dmg, NOT HP
Don't bring back world buffs. You can't believe how relieving it is not having to worry about that.
Smaller adjustments on some bosses, no downtuning
Fix herb timers (and maybe buff demonic rune drop chance, then i love you long time)

Also theres some pathing here and there that needs to be fixed, but thats not what this is about. Especially the room around Loatheb is fucked, wink wink. And Gargoyles spewing through walls, is that normal??

And not be all negative: A general thank you for a good experience in Naxxramas, I personally have had some good first raids in there with our guild.

People voting for bringing back world buffs (thankfully there is just a small amount of those) apparently are either madcrazy about playing the game 24/7 or are complete opposite and have no clue about how much micromanagent their guild does for them (from clearing DM, parking summon locks etc etc). And then you just feel like rage quitting as a dps who died.

If you want to sort the problem of "casual" guilds having hard time getting past 8-9/15 the trash nerf might have impact there actually (and it will help other guilds aswell ofc). Every wipe on trash or just having half raid dead just costs you time that 1 boss attempt takes. -> The more attempts any guild can get on a boss the sooner they will down it (self explanatory huh).

Newest update about plagueblooms seems nice, thanks for that. Up to Naxx it was Mongoose only mats but now when Mageblood is finally a thing, I hope the fix will help. And I can't help myself but support Pipfugl in Demonic Rune drop suggestion. Boost the droprate by 15% and we can spend 15% less time wanting to kill ourselves farming it and it might cause price of Dark Runes to drop slightly aswell, which is fair.

Voted against any changes - if anything private servers have the tendency of buffing boss fights over time, not nerfing it. As someone already mentioned, it is already being nerfed with every new ID and set of gear and frozen runes looted.

<3 Kronos <3

 

[GTAjedi]

I think it should stay as it is for now. I'm still enjoying our progression thanks.

Maybe you can unbuff the trash HP but keep bosses buffed.

I also like not having to bother getting world buffs

 

[Masil]

You need to ask yourself a question: is this supposed to be a blizzlike server, or a funserver?
If it's a blizzlike server, then get rid of all these moronic custom changes you've made.
If it's a funserver, then get rid of the statement on the website saying that "Here at Kronos we aim to deliver you the most authentic Vanilla experience possible", because you're clearly lying to people.

 

[rovlin]

Overall difficulty is totally fine, think my whole guild is having blast progressing the instance. Only issue especially long term is consumable availability/prices. I'd assume most of us enjoy the challenge, but the way economy has evolved combined with the required consumables for naxx it just won't be sustainable for a longer timeframe in its current state.

For me personally the best solution would be to somehow make flasks/prot pots/etc more easily available while keeping the difficulty, nerf trash if you want to.

I know that it would be heavily "funserverish" but I would love to see the option to either do pve instances or pvp battlegrounds and get consumables as reward in some way. This would increase pve and pvp activity while dealing with the consumable problem at the same time. Vanilla would be so much better if you could just do x amount of 5/10mans or battlegrounds per week to have most of your consumable needs sorted.

 

[SAKUJ0]

If you nerf Naxx, I quit the server. Right then. Right there.

The whole discussion is fucking retarded and the people crying can go to hell. You know me as someone that does not use such strong language. That is how upset I am at the whole notion of this discussion.

To be clear: No compromise is acceptable for me. If Sapphiron (or any other boss for that matter) is nerfed because some special snowflakes can't keep their fucking autism in check, then fuck this server despite the thousands of hours I invested not for myself but also for the community.

Edit: I can live with the arguments being made for nerfing trash. I don't see why people think it's so hard. The trash in particular is self-nerfing every raid day (even with AQ40). But I could live with that as I could see how that challenge just wears people down.

But if you are truly considering this, please consider making the fights longer where we currently never run into the risk of seeing special mechanics. Patchwerk / Maexxna / Thaddius come to mind. It's OK if the earlier bosses are more forgiving.

I just wanted to make sure that I am offended by the notion of nerfing the challenging bosses. I could live with trash (but I am still strongly against it).

Edit 2: I just saw you confirmed unblizzlike armor values as bugs on Razuv, Thaddius, Loatheb and Patchwerk. At least three of those already go over way too quickly. RIP... Not that this will stop ONSLAUGHT from crying, lol.

 

[kleinem]

*) Keep Boss HP, some might need some fine tuning but imho its generally fine
*) Nerf at least trash damage
*) Nerf Sapphiron damage(at least autoattack/cleave) a liittle, dunno about KT yet

*) Reintroduce world buffs in like three months(?) and revert EVERYTHING back to blizzlike

Justification:
1) Kronos and Guilds along will die out after the initial hype.
2) Some people will still want to farm the content and get bis gear for their chars and alts.
3) Not everyone wants to or can keep up with the consumable usage
4) This will also satisfy the "i came here for blizzlike*" people after the "pro" guilds had their fun
* however retardedly easy that blizzlike experience might have been

Also i don't think that the poll is a good idea as it hardly reflects the opinion of the whole playerbase,
because many people just dont care enough or even know of this thread.

 

[SAKUJ0]

Edit: I am still against nerfing trash as well, but with that suggestion I can at least empathize. Nerfing it would make the raids less fun for me, but it would not remove the magic of Naxxramas on Kronos.

No to all above. The entitlement is unreal. Not every guild has to kill every single boss.

Except for the fact that the poll is indeed a horrible idea. Are you this disconnected from the player base? Why are you not more confident? It was a great idea to buff the content. And now you are insecure after what? 4 weeks?

Give it 3 months.

 

[Lenni]

/cry /cry /cry
worldbuffguilds cant kill bosses in naxx without buffs. it's a pity

 

[SAKUJ0]

Man, even the poll is fucking pathetic.

The most positive option is "keep it as it is at the moment". Could you be more defeatist? So some crybabies and special snowflakes now learned that they sucked at this game all along.

Get a grip, team kronos. We can only be talking about one or two guilds here. Tell them to go to hell. Jesus. Not every guild has to be capable of killing KTZ (or even Sapph for that matter).

Maybe they will form raid alliances, just like we did 13 years ago to at least kill some bosses at Naxx.

 

[OnslaughtFei]

i never tanked patchwerk, ever. ive only played shaman. good job making up stories like the rest of your post i dont even know who you are or what guild youre in.

secondly, ive been on message since forever, ive never made any change to my opinions. doesnt matter if i raid or dont raid, my principles on the matter have not shifted an inch.

finally, im not the only person here that doesnt want to play custom values. i like how a bunch of insecure people somehow throw this toxic garbage our way making up claims i or onslaught never has had.

 

[nimeralos]

If it's a funserver, then get rid of the statement on the website saying that "Here at Kronos we aim to deliver you the most authentic Vanilla experience possible", because you're clearly lying to people.

"Authentic Vanilla experience" has a lot of meanings, and for many of us, authentic experience doesn't mean authentic stats. It feels more like in 2006 when you have difficulties progressing Naxx. I'm almost sure WoW Classic by Blizzard is going to be a "funserver".

Not every guild has to kill every single boss.

It was a great idea to buff the content.

Can't agree more.

 

[SAKUJ0]

i never tanked patchwerk, ever. ive only played shaman. good job making up stories like the rest of your post i dont even know who you are or what guild youre in.

https://imgur.com/a/BJzWD

When I messaged you I did not ask you how OP pro 9001 dps you are. I congratulated you for having an established guild for what seems to be at least 4 years. I didn't inquire whether your twitch account was old.

Way to poop on that tradition now.

Back on topic, your only point here is "We don't want to play custom values". Care to elaborate, where this is so bad? Because right now your arguments are that of a religious fanatic. This is not a matter of belief or whose religion is better. Blizzlike, nostlike fucklike I don't give a rat's ass.

The game is better this way. Sapphiron was not originally designed to be beaten without preparation that took time at Naxx. Only by the most exceptional guilds, and those beat them. Vanguard, Synced and a Kronos II guild named easy are all better guilds than you.

There is a famous saying, Fei.

"Less QQ, more GG"

See, there is not much left to do, once guilds clear Naxx a few times. This debate would be a different one, if you waited a few months and actually tried harder. You didn't. You just want your "loot pinada".

 

[OnslaughtFei]

no qq, spend 5 minutes to read my last year of forums posts, stop embellishing. i have been on point.

you also edited your post out talking about how i was a tank and made claims i have never made. in the video linked you clearly see me, a shaman.

 

[Brezel]

Hm, let's see.
We have a guild that prides itself on doing the fastest boss kills possible with any buff imaginable. ( and they are doing really well in that department, nothing to take away there.) Members of that guild say openly "the less time we spent in the raid, the less time i have to play and can log of kronos again, during AQ times". When one person dies their raidday is kinda over. This attitude works well to get people while content is easy and a pushover, but also creates expectation in the players and the guild itself.
Fast forward a year of people trying to be online as little as possible ( and so a lot will have farmed not that much, how can you ) while still burning every consume every week into speedruns that don't really matter, instead of pulling back on consumes, let the worldbuffs carry you and save it for progression.

Now Naxx hits, it's buffed slightly to be a fun "blizzlike experience" and not another pushover. People die, more in the beginning, a little less later ( not used to and every death is spited before ). People need to use more consumes since more death, which they don't have anymore since not really farmed a stash ( little time wanting to play the game ) or used the stash to increase killtime of meanigless boss by 2 seconds.

Everyone that played back then or talked to people from back then knew and knows that during progression it is pretty hard to keep up the farming for all you need, since you will die more during progression. Once stuff is more under controll keeping up with farming while playing is totally doable. And this is for server that had 2-4 Naxxguilds in retail, not like on Kronos where you have what 12-15 guilds running it, with prices that were already high for stuff before the release?

Totally Kronos' fault to create this attitude overall and not at all might be a problem of shortsightet big dick dps bravado.

Most guilds you will talk to have a blast playing this Naxxramas. Even the ones progressing on the lower bosses still. Some bosses are way to easy early on. Some trash a little bit too punishing to mistakes, perhaps. But guess what, find better ways to do the trash, minimize mistakes, and it will be fine too. A raid is not only the bosses to kill.

Just keep everything the way it is now. If in 4 weeks some of the "lower" guilds start complaining, check what they are complaining about. Never touch Sapph+KT(except some bugfixes to timers if needed, but not the dmg/hp values) though, they are perfectly doable and will get easier over time anyways.

 

[SAKUJ0]

You are kind of dodging my question and keep arguing semantics. I am aware the PoV is not yours.

Back on topic, your only point here is "We don't want to play custom values". Care to elaborate, where this is so bad? Because right now your arguments are that of a religious fanatic. This is not a matter of belief or whose religion is better. Blizzlike, nostlike fucklike I don't give a rat's ass.

The game is better this way. Sapphiron was not originally designed to be beaten without preparation that took time at Naxx. Only by the most exceptional guilds, and those beat them. Vanguard, Synced and a Kronos II guild named easy are all better guilds than you.

(...)

See, there is not much left to do, once guilds clear Naxx a few times. This debate would be a different one, if you waited a few months and actually tried harder. You didn't. You just want your "loot pinada".

 

[Hotslice]

For years the complaint I heard from players of other private servers was always "Kronos raids are too easy". I played on Elysium for a while and they actually had massively buffed raids - more boss damage, more trash damage, bigger cleave area, you name it. But people loved that. Now Kronos puts out an actually difficult version of the FINAL RAID and people here cry because "its not blizzlike". Thanks to the devs for being transparent about the changes instead of claiming that this is blizzlike, and letting the community discuss it. So here's my two cents:

Fuck Blizzlike. Blizzlike was easy as hell and the only reason people wiped on it back in the day was they didn't know every single mechanic ahead of time, have perfect timer addons, have 8 tanks ready to go for 4HM, have every single protection potion pre-farmed for months, and have BIS AQ40 gear on every single raid member. Kronos has always aimed to be better than Blizzlike. Every single guild today is more well prepared than world first guilds were back in original Vanilla. And by modern standards even Naxxramas simply isn't that difficult of an instance. The only way to make it more challenging without actually modifying the mechanics is to buff the numbers.

Fuck world buffs. They are boring as hell, additional time consuming stuff to do on top of farming all the required consumes for naxx. If you get world buffs and then die to one of the many TRULY RANDOM damage events that can kill you in Naxx, then you feel like crap for the rest of the raid and your chance of a good parse is gone. Surviving to the end of a raid and getting a top parse on KT is gonna feel like a total crapshoot with world buffs allowed, unless your guild is willing to split raid up into multiple days and/or constantly leave and rebuff. What a pain in the ass.

Thanks again to the devs for giving us a challenge. Risen still hasn't killed KT yet and ofc we are pissed off about that but the numbers balancing feels right. The only real issue we had was frost blast and frostbolt volley going off at almost the same time, but otherwise it feels good. Nobody in our guild has been complaining about the numbers tuning. To the people asking for nerfs: Do you want the server to die faster? Because that's what happens when Naxx goes into ultra easy mode farm.

I wish Kronos 3 would come with +50% HP and+50% damage to every boss in the game

edit: I wouldn't mind a nerf to the trash HP though, it just makes the raid more time consuming. Damage values are fine.

edit2: I am no longer an officer of Risen and this post is only my personal opinion. I do not necessarily represent the guild as a whole.

 

[SAKUJ0]

Fuck world buffs. They are boring as hell, additional time consuming stuff to do on top of farming all the required consumes for naxx. If you die to one of the many TRULY RANDOM damage events that can kill you in Naxx, then you feel like crap for the rest of the raid and your chance of a good parse is gone. Surviving to the end of a raid and getting a top parse on KT is gonna feel like a total crapshoot with world buffs allowed, unless your guild is willing to split raid up into multiple days and/or constantly leave and rebuff. What a pain in the ass.

I couldn't agree more with you. To the people seriously wanting world buffs, can't you see that you would get into a mentality of absolutely needing them for serious attempts? Can you not see how much more unforgiving wipes would become?

The only good part about world buffs is the RvR that comes with it. It's not like ONSLAUGHT is into Raid vs Raid so favoring world buffs seems perplexing. Nerfing content will not enable higher retention. World buffs certainly will not. The contrary, it would alienate players.

Because as Hotslice said, the main criticism was that raids on Kronos are somehow too easy. Naxxramas certainly is not too easy in general. Kronos finally delivered and thanks for that.

Now it's our turn.

Yes, mostly horde guilds.

Do speak for yourself. It's funny how you say this and then at least 3 horde guilds make statements here, saying how they like the challenge. I can't see any horde guild saying they don't like the challenge... other than... ONSLAUGHT (surprise).

 

[OnslaughtFei]

Well at least 135 people have voted for blizzlike emulated values (more than onslaughts guildbase). you may disagree and this is fine and you may even feel its necessary to ad hominem me or onslaught because i have been very vocal for a very very long to a strict blizzard policy but that does not take away from the fact that overtuned content reduces your playerbase and is detrimental in the mid to long term.

 

[SAKUJ0]

I don't care whatsoever about the polls results. You know very well how easily they can be tampered with. The vote is flawed.

From what I know, there are 40... oops sorry I meant 35 voices that want a nerfed Naxxramas. I only care about guild consensus being brought forward. We heard you, but you also have to respect Indecisive and Wipe Club speaking against you on almost all your points. So if your reasoning is the results of this skewed vote, reason again. If anything, this thread indicates that most horde guilds want to keep it as is.

I was asking you for your reasoning, not for the results of this heavily flawed vote. You have not given a single good reason why stuff should be made easier before guilds like us even got a chance to try this version of Naxx. You are just repeating your stance over and over again.

overtuned content reduces your playerbase and is detrimental in the mid to long term

Detrimental how? Maybe the members of your guild got used to a hostile guild atmosphere and playing RealmPlayers instead of World of Warcraft. They might be leaving because of that. If I was raiding with you during one of your rants? Guess what, I would have quit ONSLAUGHT as well. Woops the tank died, it's a wipe!.

And I'd wager that having people with your mentality is actually detrimental to the mid to long term success of the server. Because you (and me too) we are a bunch of stupid raid loggers.

You are way, way way underestimating the effect of not having any remaining content available to the player base. What's the point to keep raiding, after having cleared a nerfed Naxxramas a few times?

You are projecting from your guild to others and you are desperate and hope this folly will save your guild from losing members. You will lose members no matter what. So will we.

It does not matter, the Horde - NA or EU - has enough dedicated players to clear Naxxramas in multiple raids every week. Instead of crying for changes, you guys are better off not offending your only potential future allies. I don't give a shit, I don't represent <Indecisive>. You do speak for your fucking guild, do you not see that? I am not even from your time zone.

Is your hope that a nerf will suddenly improve player retention really your only reasoning? Are you for real? In that case we can close the poll and thread. Because that, my friend, is wishful thinking.

 

[Hotslice]

overtuned content reduces your playerbase and is detrimental in the mid to long term.

I don't think the content is overtuned.

 

[SAKUJ0]

I don't think the content is overtuned.

He is making a semantic argument. His argument is that of a religion. Compared to the original values, it technically is tuned harder. He (so far) reasons that the old values are somehow magic and that deviating from them (I guess this should go both ways right?) would lead to people abandoning the server.

But yeah, it's tuned almost perfectly right. I am surprised about just how well most of the fights are tuned. They confirmed the higher armor values of Razuvious, Thaddius, Loatheb and Patchwerk on the issue tracker as well, which worries me. Looks like we might get the first nerfs really soon And more than anything this applies to thaddius, loatheb and patchwerk who (if anything) could use a buff in HP to make for an authentic blizzlike experience.

 

[OnslaughtFei]

sure, its fine that you do not agree nor understand the framework which kronos used to abide by but i do not understand the need for the vitriol. Onslaught is doing fine in naxx, we cleared up to sapphiron on release weekend. our main tank has been absent on a vacation for awhile and we havent had the time because we are unable to raid a 3rd raid day. onslaught has always been a tard guild. its in the name. if things cannot get conan the barbarian'd down then we generally dont do well. its always been that way and it took awhile to systematize aq40. just because you are salty that ziggy left your guild is salt that you need to deal with him, i didnt snipe him. he left on his own accord. dont drag me into the drama and throw garbage around this forum.

 

[SAKUJ0]

Still waiting for a single fucking reason to nerf things, Fei. "Players will leave the server" is not good enough. It is very telling that that is the only thing you can come up with, topped with a little bit of condescension

its fine that you do not agree nor understand the framework which kronos used to abide by

will not win you this argument. Your job is to make a pleb like me understand. Convince us.

You don't have to explain to me why you are struggling now. I don't care about your guild. It's funny how you are still dodging the question and now trying to change the topic even harder. Seriously, accusing me of "dragging you into the drama" and then mentioning our former people moving to your guild and now learning that the grass is not always greener on the other side.

Stop trying to derail the fucking topic and get back on point.