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    TwinStar team

Character Auction

Fact said:
People nitpicking if this is P2W when the whole micro transaction idea is rotten to the core. Shit is shit no matter what we call it.

We have actual honest donations available, crowd funding, things we can support the server without getting anything in return other than standing working updating server. Look how much money Rebirth gathered with their scam.

If not buying lvl 60 or an item prevents someone from "donating", he's a leecher. "The money exchanged helps the server!" This is the main rationalization apologists give when they defend this character buying.
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You need to realise that the only reason why twinstar calls its micro transactions "dontations" is the legal aspect of it. They could theoretically get in trouble by straight selling blizzard's copyrighted material, such as a murloc pet. That's why they don't sell anything, they only accept voluntary donations. They also happen to give you some worthless virtual currency if you decide to donate. Oh and by the way, you can use that currency to buy stuff. But they don't profit from selling it to you. That currency is worthless and you can acquire it in a lot of ways, only one of which is spending real world money.
Had the legal situation been different, those donations wouldn't be called donations, but a more appropriate name.
With semantics cleared up, the second thing to realise is, we are talking about a project bigger than just Kronos. And so far, the vast majority of its players come from Slovakia and Czech republic. In our part of the world, we are actually not as enlightened that we would just be giving (donating) money to someone when we don't have to. Sure, there are people who support charities and stuff, but that's a bit different. When I play on a private server I think to myself "Sweet! I don't have to pay anything!" and not "hmm I should send them some money because they are awesome". And I'm confident to say that this is the majority's way of thinking.
Had twinstar relied only on the kindness of our hearts for these 6 years, they would earn nowhere near their actual earnings and I think they wouldn't even be as successfull as they are.
I'll skip addressing that 'micropayments are rotten' part as that would probably cause more offtopic than I'd like.

TL;DR
Yes, these aren't really donations. Yes, "leecher", to some degree. But, this server is full of leechers that would never spend a cent on it if they didn't get something in return and apart from the character auction being a very interesting idea, a lot of people would even call it a great idea, the money exchanged actually helped/helps the server immensly.
 
Hagson said:
Someone else looses a character yes, that makes this system less bad than creating new characters. You will still "resurrect" dead characters though, thereby "creating" more herbalists, tailors and whatnot than there otherwise would be.

If this system got changed into a "character trading" system where you trade one character for another and

Your example about the bluegeared character is an interesting one, because your bad scenario could easily happen with this system. Say you meet a guy when leveling, you talk to him, you add him to friends and you get to know eachother. You raid with him like you said, but he doesnt get any drops.

The next day he whispers you from another character with full BiS gear, but with a different name (though this could be changed as well). You ask him where he got that gear and he answers "I bought a character with it, it's cool isnt it?".
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If a person was playing their character up until they decided to auction it, then someone wins it in the auction, that character is not "being resurrected" it is just going to continue to be played. Unless you really know the person who is leaving the game, or the person who is purchasing the character you would have no idea that it even happened.

As far as the example with the bluegeared character, the only way that a person ends up in that scenario is, again, if someone levels a character to 60, runs dungeons until they have BiS, decide that they want to quit and not retain their character, and then that they would rather have Kronos bucks than real money when they're getting rid of a character that they've sunk a lot of time into.

If all of that happens, then yes, you're right, your scenario could exist. What I'm trying to get you to see is how unlikely that is going to be, especially in the first few months of the server. However, even after that, the only reason for people to sell their accounts on the auction is if they plan to continue playing on the server, which as you said falls under the category of trading characters more than selling.
 
Azalus said:
If a person was playing their character up until they decided to auction it, then someone wins it in the auction, that character is not "being resurrected" it is just going to continue to be played. Unless you really know the person who is leaving the game, or the person who is purchasing the character you would have no idea that it even happened.

As far as the example with the bluegeared character, the only way that a person ends up in that scenario is, again, if someone levels a character to 60, runs dungeons until they have BiS, decide that they want to quit and not retain their character, and then that they would rather have Kronos bucks than real money when they're getting rid of a character that they've sunk a lot of time into.

If all of that happens, then yes, you're right, your scenario could exist. What I'm trying to get you to see is how unlikely that is going to be, especially in the first few months of the server. However, even after that, the only reason for people to sell their accounts on the auction is if they plan to continue playing on the server, which as you said falls under the category of trading characters more than selling.
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Unlikely or not, it's still a flawed system that allows for p2w to happen.
 
what you suggest for gather enought money for keep server up without costant dc/lag and shiet?
 
indaco said:
what you suggest for gather enought money for keep server up without costant dc/lag and shiet?
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He will not suggest anything. Because that would be constructive criticism and we can't have that here, now can we?
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Hagson said:
Most of these interpretations are "paying for "too big" of an advantage". How much is "too much"? For me any advantage is bad enough. See up as to why it's buying an advantage.
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I must admit you gave some nice arguments and time, especially in vanilla, is an advantage.
But, as much as i would like to avoid citing Star Wars, you ARE dealing in absolutes.
If that much is too much for you, you have to ask yourself if that's fair regarding to Kronos devs.
Also, did you see this system at work, did you see it being exploited, have you witnessed crushing unfairness that it brought upon you, did it make you shiver and decide to log out and deinstall while listening to Lacrimosa?

Any advantage is bad enough. Fair enough. Let's say there are no Character Auctions. Lets say there are people competing in mount count or pet count. Damn, Kronos is pay to win becouse this guy just bought pets for real money and now i have less, i've lost. Still P2W. Rite.

Does it really bother you that much or are you just enjoying the argument?
And, again, please don't call it P2W as to why i explained earlier.
 
In my opinion, you chaps are confusing the issue so much.
Look, a gaming system places time barriers in front of your path to rewards.
If the gaming system offers to remove those time barriers for money, then it is a Pay To Win gaming system.

In the WoW Retail gaming system, there’s a player-driven underground market for rewards that require time investment. That does not make the WoW Retail gaming system itself a Pay To Win gaming system, the game does not spawn items for money.
In the Kronos gaming system, there will be a player-driven underground market for rewards that require time investment. That does not make the Kronos gaming system itself a Pay To Win gaming system, the game does not spawn items for money.

These are the proper definitions. Kronos’ measure merely attempts to bring some of this player-driven underground market to the surface, where it indirectly curbs its appeal. You must be disoriented by the funds Kronos is receiving. Remove it for one moment from the equation. Say Kronos offers this for no monetary gain; then it becomes clear the measure actually removes some of the temptation from the seller, given that the seller receives NO cash.

I myself cannot have a problem with it o_O
Characters that would otherwise not be around for me to play with or against will continue to roam the gaming world. Characters that would otherwise be traded for cash between players, are traded for vanity items, while the funds go to support the development and administration of the gaming world I am playing in. Good.
 
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I hope that everyone on the forums is going to have the same name in game because I am making a list of people I am going to avoid like the plague. lol
 
Seriously, this discussion is so stupid in the grand scheme of things. It's just whining to have something to whine about really. When Kronos launches, there will be NO auctions. Everyone will be leveling. There is no point in leveling and selling, because you make no money out of it, just points to buy vanity items. People who will want money for their character later on will do it anyway, just like on other servers and on retail (many of my friends sold their chars on retail. They had r1 titles so they got paid 200euro+ and now someone is using that char, someone who probably sucks at PvP.) It happends. Deal with it. If blizz can't stop it, why would private realms be able to?

So who will really use this service? People who want to trade characters, or people who quit, liked it here, and will put it up for auction so Twinstar get's something out of it. If someone buys that char from a "dead" account, that's great. Why the hell would you want less players on a private realm??

The most childish arguement was buying 5 tailors for mooncloth :lol: Good luck finding maxed tailors around the same time on a x1 server who will quit the game (not trade, because that would mean this person who wants to clearly own 5+ accounts whould have to give one in return), and use the auction service...C'mon now. By the way. I've quit on 3 private realms, and i GAVE MY ACCOUNTS AWAY when i stopped. Same influence on the game. And as many said before, nothing is being added to the server, so there is 0 impact on your gameplay.
 
^ I know right, that's why I've decided to stop arguing. All anti-auction arguments have been debunked already even if their authors don't want to see it. And anyway, as you just said, even if auctions ARE a bad thing, they're so irrelevant that it's not even worth talking about them. All it does is poison the forum's atmosphere, which is most likely the goal of the people who started this discussion. Most of them are debating here even though they have no intention of playing on Kronos, and are probably only trying to persuade the community that it's a bad server.
 
^That

Actually, it could also be people who just have no experience with private realms.
 
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indaco said:
what you suggest for gather enought money for keep server up without costant dc/lag and shiet?
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Ernis said:
He will not suggest anything. Because that would be constructive criticism and we can't have that here, now can we?
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I've already suggested methods (either here or in the other very similar thread), most of these already exist.
You could sell items such as oldschool mounts, noncombat pets, tabards, other vanity items such as the ogre idol, race changes, faction changes, and probably some more stuff I've forgotten. And you could accept straight up donations.
All of these combined should be enough to sustain the server.

Eltar said:
I must admit you gave some nice arguments and time, especially in vanilla, is an advantage.
But, as much as i would like to avoid citing Star Wars, you ARE dealing in absolutes.
If that much is too much for you, you have to ask yourself if that's fair regarding to Kronos devs.
Also, did you see this system at work, did you see it being exploited, have you witnessed crushing unfairness that it brought upon you, did it make you shiver and decide to log out and deinstall while listening to Lacrimosa?

Any advantage is bad enough. Fair enough. Let's say there are no Character Auctions. Lets say there are people competing in mount count or pet count. Damn, Kronos is pay to win becouse this guy just bought pets for real money and now i have less, i've lost. Still P2W. Rite.

Does it really bother you that much or are you just enjoying the argument?
And, again, please don't call it P2W as to why i explained earlier.
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I know enough about it to critisize it without having seen it in action. This argument is akin to someone saying "Well you do it better then!" when someone suggest a new way for them to hit the ball in baseball.

The game isn't about collecting mounts and pets though, so that wouldnt be pay2win.

Azalus said:
That's it then, will you at least concede that the system is no more pay to win than black market character auctions?
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Character auctions for real money (or stars or flowerpots) are pay2win. Black market selling of accounts/characters for real money (or stars or flowerpots) is pay2win. Selling/buying gold for real money (or stars or flowerpots) is pay2win. Selling/Buying items (such as bossdrops) for real money (or stars or flowerpots) is pay2win.

Yet only one of these are allowed, why is that?


IngridMorbid said:
Seriously, this discussion is so stupid in the grand scheme of things. It's just whining to have something to whine about really. When Kronos launches, there will be NO auctions. Everyone will be leveling. There is no point in leveling and selling, because you make no money out of it, just points to buy vanity items. People who will want money for their character later on will do it anyway, just like on other servers and on retail (many of my friends sold their chars on retail. They had r1 titles so they got paid 200euro+ and now someone is using that char, someone who probably sucks at PvP.) It happends. Deal with it. If blizz can't stop it, why would private realms be able to?

So who will really use this service? People who want to trade characters, or people who quit, liked it here, and will put it up for auction so Twinstar get's something out of it. If someone buys that char from a "dead" account, that's great. Why the hell would you want less players on a private realm??

The most childish arguement was buying 5 tailors for mooncloth :lol: Good luck finding maxed tailors around the same time on a x1 server who will quit the game (not trade, because that would mean this person who wants to clearly own 5+ accounts whould have to give one in return), and use the auction service...C'mon now. By the way. I've quit on 3 private realms, and i GAVE MY ACCOUNTS AWAY when i stopped. Same influence on the game. And as many said before, nothing is being added to the server, so there is 0 impact on your gameplay.
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"This scenario is unlikely, therefore it's not bad".
I disagree.
 
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Surely character auctions are just a regulated way to hire someone to level your character for you. It's not paying to win. It paying to save yourself time. So all you are paying for is someone else's time. What you then do with that time is your business only.

Twinstar are just here to regulate that to save it from being for genuine currency.
 
Since the level 60's being sold aren't created out of thin air by the server staff, I simply don't care about there being an auction service facilitated by them or not.

If a brand new player comes to the server and this service wasn't available, they could just contact a guild that's advertising sales secretly on the sly and hand over money to get... A character that wasn't created out of thin air.

Twinstar cuts themselves in for a piece of the action for the same hand-leveled piece of a virtual commodity. Big whoop.

I think I'd care more about the issue if the sales of characters would foster a really strong black market / farming issue that would disrupt my play time on the server, but I don't see that happening either. The guilds that would participate in black market sales of game goods are now in direct competition against the server host, which means set prices which will be lower (comparatively) and thus a lower incentive to even bother.
 
Hagson said:
Character auctions for real money (or stars or flowerpots) are pay2win. Black market selling of accounts/characters for real money (or stars or flowerpots) is pay2win. Selling/buying gold for real money (or stars or flowerpots) is pay2win. Selling/Buying items (such as bossdrops) for real money (or stars or flowerpots) is pay2win.

Yet only one of these are allowed, why is that?
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Because the one that is allowed is the one that doesn't actually change the game. It doesn't create anything out of thin air.

It does the exact same thing that people would otherwise do for real money, or for nothing at all. It changes the ownership of the character that has already existed, already been played, and for all you know never changed hands anyway.

If anything it promotes a higher population of the server. It allows people to continue the existence of characters, while encouraging those that sell their characters to come back because all they get for their sale is currency that can be used on this project.

I understand being against Pay to Win, and I totally agree with you on most cases, but this one doesn't fall under the same umbrella as buying gold, items, levels, or characters created out of thin air. This is a very specific use feature and it isn't game-breaking in any way that a person wouldn't be able to accomplish otherwise.
 
Lexenadar said:
^ I know right, that's why I've decided to stop arguing. All anti-auction arguments have been debunked already even if their authors don't want to see it. And anyway, as you just said, even if auctions ARE a bad thing, they're so irrelevant that it's not even worth talking about them. All it does is poison the forum's atmosphere, which is most likely the goal of the people who started this discussion. Most of them are debating here even though they have no intention of playing on Kronos, and are probably only trying to persuade the community that it's a bad server.
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Jesus F. Christ that's a lot of assumptions condensed into one post.

The reason people are against character auctions is exactly the same reason people (and Blizzard as far we know) were against it, character buying, and account trading in retail. I'm fairly sure you would have been in the incredibly tiny minority to support this. Scratch that, I'm even more sure you would've been against it.

There is no other argument defending the character auctioning than directing the cash flow to the server maintenance. It is an flimsy argument at best, because gathering money by means which don't affect the game itself has been proven more than successful in the private vanilla WoW community. I hope this triggered some cognitive dissonance.

Lots are arguing from indifference. That it doesn't matter much, or have that much effect, or it happens anyway. Well, it means everything to me. But I can't really support my feeling because it's just that, a feeling. You need to realize those are not arguments with any basis, they are just opinions. You are making ignore lists and declaring yourselves right on this basis. What is this, a forum for toddlers?
 
Fact said:
Jesus F. Christ that's a lot of assumptions condensed into one post.

The reason people are against character auctions is exactly the same reason people (and Blizzard as far we know) were against it, character buying, and account trading in retail. I'm fairly sure you would have been in the incredibly tiny minority to support this. Scratch that, I'm even more sure you would've been against it.
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Yes i would be against it in retail...why? Because of the subscription fee. I am happy to have spent my time leveling my own character. But then a go on a few raids/high end dungeons with people who havent leveled at all and just brought the character? Well thats fine...but I just pay how many months worth to run this content and succeed in it with more skilled players to then instead run it with one or two noobs. That is not OK, when I have invested money, that is not OK.

However in the private server scene. I couldn't care less, I am not investing my money in the game (apart from a few donations of my own free will). Only my time...and thats fine, If I fail a raid I waited all week for because 10 people (yes it is an exaggeration) just brought their characters a few days ago and haven't got a clue...I would be pissed because thats 1 week out of 4 I paid for...but when I have a much larger pool of weeks, simply because I didn't invested any money. Then it is much less of an issue.

In fact, I welcome it. It is what the private scene is all about, catering to the player base on how they want to play WoW (TO AN EXTENT). If we get a bit more population because this feature attracts people who want an insta-60 server...then they have that option here on Kronos, if they paid towards the server. If it was a 60 out of thin air. I would be raging. However it is a character I saw in RFC or BFD, and due to circumstances I might not see in BRD or LBRS...unless someone would like to pick up that character and continue, then it does not affect me at all. Actually I could be none the wiser of the person behind that character has changed hands...it might mean we fail BRD because he did not have any clue as to how to play....so i lose a few hours/an hour...who cares? I didn't pay for it.
 
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Azalus said:
Because the one that is allowed is the one that doesn't actually change the game. It doesn't create anything out of thin air.

[...]

I understand being against Pay to Win, and I totally agree with you on most cases, but this one doesn't fall under the same umbrella as buying gold, items, levels, or characters created out of thin air. This is a very specific use feature and it isn't game-breaking in any way that a person wouldn't be able to accomplish otherwise.
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I apologize if I was unclear, I meant players selling gold/accounts/bossdrops, not these things being created out of thin air.
 
I had a whole thing typed up, but people have said everything I had in it already (damn it).

Overall, as long as Twinstar doesn't sell gold or items for money/VP, there's no way I can be against this because I can't prove anything other than there's someone playing a new character, and a person having 6 level 60's isn't going to have any more effect on the game than a person with one level 60 especially since multiboxing is banned.

You will never stop the trading of characters. You just can't. If you're going to stop it here where it's legal, are you going to go to those websites where it is happening for real money and try to shut them down? Are you going to track everyone in game to make sure they're the same player and the second they change are you going to report them for account trading? If you say no to either of these questions, you're just blowing smoke. You're only making an issue here just to make an issue. Saying this is wrong and shouldn't be allowed isn't hurting anyone but the server. Others in this thread have already said people will be trading accounts for real money. I respect the views against this, but in my mind, this is a great alternative to the dealing of characters for real money (which is going to happen anyway).
 
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