Congrats Onslaught!

[Hagson]

Well let's clear something up real quick: At no point did Risen come to me and tell us they were gonna do what they did. In fact, they had the first pull on Azuregos and we were the first ones to wipe them and were gleefully partaking in the melee against them all the time afterwards.

I'm glad to hear. I hope you keep refraining from encouraging this behaviour

 

[BerniSunders]

Well let's clear something up real quick: At no point did Risen come to me and tell us they were gonna do what they did. In fact, they had the first pull on Azuregos and we were the first ones to wipe them and were gleefully partaking in the melee against them all the time afterwards.

Can confirm, was ganked at least a dozen times and ran off a few cliffs. Yay protection tree!

 

[BerniSunders]

I'm glad to hear. I hope you keep refraining from encouraging this behaviour

I'm glad to hear. I hope you keep refraining from encouraging this behaviour

Hagson I'd love to reply to that wall of text you posted earlier, but I'll be honest TL;DR but I did catch this tid bit:

"If everyone had followed the rules we would have kept fighting until horde or us got tired, and the winner of that war of attrition would have gotten their deserved kill. "

When has that ever been a rule? If it is a rule, then we are playing with different playbooks. I'm sorry dude we aren't all 14 years old and can stay online for 12 hours camping a world boss that has been on farm since release. I was willing to stay online for 24 hours straight if need be, but that's another story involving growing my beautiful neck beard.

You should really be asking yourself, why you would want a 100% chance at no loot, versus 50% chance at some loot and probably a verbal agreement to let you have first pull on the next boss if you lost the roll.

 

[Hagson]

When has that ever been a rule? If it is a rule, then we are playing with different playbooks. I'm sorry dude we aren't all 14 years old and can stay online for 12 hours camping a world boss that has been on farm since release. I was willing to stay online for 24 hours straight if need be, but that's another story involving growing my beautiful neck beard.

On every server i've ever played on same faction griefing and wintrading has been against the rules. It was against the rules in retail vanilla too. Only on Kronos are the admins to incredibly lenient with this stuff.
As for you not wanting to stay, I'm sorry you're not willing to commit to getting the kill, but that doesn't excuse this horrible behaviour.

You should really be asking yourself, why you would want a 100% chance at no loot, versus 50% chance at some loot and probably a verbal agreement to let you have first pull on the next boss if you lost the roll.

I rated our chances at getting the Azu kill significantly higher than 0%. More than half of the Risen/Freefall raid had left, and the horde numbers were starting to decline. A few hours more and enough would have left for Vanguard/Coral raid to kill it.
Like I said, if anyone had asked me I might have considered a deal, but if you look at the circumstances you will realise we were in a way better position than you, and only because of this unholy alliance were you able to kill it for Onslaught. Like I said though:

Maybe there will be a day where a cooperation would benefit us both, not just you. Then we'd be more than happy to strike an agreement. At least we were before you sunk to griefing and wintrading. Im not sure I want to be associated with people like you anymore.

("you" in this case being Tripwyr aka Risen)

 

[SashaYudin]

Never have I ever ~

Been so amused by reading a forum post and experiencing such spite but Alas...last night was that night.

It's a good thing listen to Blizzard when they said "take everything in moderation," Don't QQ because this server won't last forever and will never bee 100% perfect.

I came last night to Azshara after my Scholomance farm and I had a great time! I listened to drama from alliance guilds and PvPed in such a beautiful pleace, this brought back nostalgia when Team Plague Versus Ridin Dirty against Azuregos on Emerald Dream.

Tis amazing though, such hate from our own faction towards each other

 

[Davros]

When it comes to world bosses, as a team we are aware of intentional griefing. We are working on ways to improve (or should we, reduce) briefing when it comes to world bosses. However, not every possible scenario can be covered from all angles. Level 1's on Kazzak? easier to deal with. Same faction griefing? similar but can be a bit more challenging while still remaining something that can be addressed.

However, when it comes to different factions working together that is something that would be extremely difficult to "police". We are here to help the server as best we can, we can't always be police officers. Honor trading in battlegrounds is against the rules, and "easy" to isolate and determine who is doing what. When it comes to a world pvp environment, how can you enforce one faction not killing another on sight? We as a team cannot force players to kill each other on sight. In this thread there has been both claims that the rival factions were working together, and claims from those within those guilds that there was no direct collusion. So, as a team what are we left with? We were not there to witness this behaviour, and even if we we had been and if we did deem that "working together" between factions was against the server rules how do we provide suitable evidence? As an example, a member from Risen and the guild leader of Onslaught has stated in this thread that they engaged in pvp with each other. So how do you enforce something where there is no clear direct evidence?

That is the challenge that we as a team would face with world bosses if cross faction co-operation were not allowed. We could suspect that factions are working together, but without clear cut evidence it would be very difficult for us to prove it.

So if any players have an answer or ideas on how such a rule would be enforced then as a team we would be happy to discuss it amongst ourselves at our next meeting.

 

[Hagson]

When it comes to world bosses, as a team we are aware of intentional griefing. We are working on ways to improve (or should we, reduce) briefing when it comes to world bosses. However, not every possible scenario can be covered from all angles. Level 1's on Kazzak? easier to deal with. Same faction griefing? similar but can be a bit more challenging while still remaining something that can be addressed.

However, when it comes to different factions working together that is something that would be extremely difficult to "police". We are here to help the server as best we can, we can't always be police officers. Honor trading in battlegrounds is against the rules, and "easy" to isolate and determine who is doing what. When it comes to a world pvp environment, how can you enforce one faction not killing another on sight? We as a team cannot force players to kill each other on sight. In this thread there has been both claims that the rival factions were working together, and claims from those within those guilds that there was no direct collusion. So, as a team what are we left with? We were not there to witness this behaviour, and even if we we had been and if we did deem that "working together" between factions was against the server rules how do we provide suitable evidence? As an example, a member from Risen and the guild leader of Onslaught has stated in this thread that they engaged in pvp with each other. So how do you enforce something where there is no clear direct evidence?

That is the challenge that we as a team would face with world bosses if cross faction co-operation were not allowed. We could suspect that factions are working together, but without clear cut evidence it would be very difficult for us to prove it.

So if any players have an answer or ideas on how such a rule would be enforced then as a team we would be happy to discuss it amongst ourselves at our next meeting.

There are video recordings of Risen members picking up, tanking, and killing Azuregos while he has Onslaught tag. There is video evidence of Brochette taking aggro of Azuregos and trying to leash him while he has VG/Coral tag. Ban the characters involved. Problem solved.

I think Kronos admins in general are far too insistant on finding "catch-all" automated solutions. You cant write algorithms for enforcing every rule. Sometimes you have to rely on players reporting them and banning the characters after the fact.

 

[Asmodeus]

The main problem with what Risen/Freefall did from a dev/gm standpoint is that they eliminated the mechanic behind world bosses, competition. The coral/vg team did its part by wiping the horde and we were preparing to kill it (probably would have). The Risen/freewall team then picked that tagged boss up and continued to kill it for the horde instead of allowing it to reset. From a competition standpoint, what could we have done? It's impossible to attack our own faction, they took the competition out of the encounter.

It's been hinted a few times that this will occur again. In order to compete are we expected to commission a horde guild ourselves in order to be on an even playing field? Where does it end? Is this really how the game is meant to be played?

 

[Davros]

There are video recordings of Risen members picking up, tanking, and killing Azuregos while he has Onslaught tag. There is video evidence of Brochette taking aggro of Azuregos and trying to leash him while he has VG/Coral tag. Ban the characters involved. Problem solved.

I think Kronos admins in general are far too insistant on finding "catch-all" automated solutions. You cant write algorithms for enforcing every rule. Sometimes you have to rely on players reporting them and banning the characters after the fact.

Ok. Hypothetical scenario. Continuing the tag on a world boss for a cross faction guild becomes against server rules. This is easily done. That doesn't really address the core issue of complaints (cross faction guilds working together). You still experience what you experienced on Azuregos. That's the core problem that seems to be the main complaint. How to address that?

 

[Tripwyr]

Ok. Hypothetical scenario. Continuing the tag on a world boss for a cross faction guild becomes against server rules. This is easily done. That doesn't really address the core issue of complaints (cross faction guilds working together). You still experience what you experienced on Azuregos. That's the core problem that seems to be the main complaint. How to address that?

Cross-faction cooperation was common on retail, only win trading in battlegrounds was against the rules. On Mannoroth we coordinated the war effort, and The Twelve Prophets, vodka and Macabre all coordinated for world boss kills.

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

Ok. Hypothetical scenario. Continuing the tag on a world boss for a cross faction guild becomes against server rules. This is easily done. That doesn't really address the core issue of complaints (cross faction guilds working together). You still experience what you experienced on Azuregos. That's the core problem that seems to be the main complaint. How to address that?

We understand that them working towards a common goal within their own faction limits cannot be countered and it's not that big an issue. We just have to tryhard more to beat them.

It's just them killing the world boss for Onslaught so we cannot interfere part that we have problems with. If you remove that from yesterday's events then you get a really good world boss fight and no one would complain.

 

[Tripwyr]

We understand that them working towards a common goal within their own faction limits cannot be countered and it's not that big an issue. We just have to tryhard more to beat them.

It's just them killing the world boss for Onslaught so we cannot interfere part that we have problems with. If you remove that from yesterday's events then you get a really good world boss fight and no one would complain.

We can't interfere when you attempt to kill Azuregos, why is it mandatory that you be able to interfere with every boss kill attempt?

 

[Hagson]

We can't interfere when you attempt to kill Azuregos, why is it mandatory that you be able to interfere with every boss kill attempt?

Alliance should not be able to interfere with Alliance killing Azuregos. Alliance should be able to interfere with Horde killing Azuregos. Your actions made this impossible

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

We can't interfere when you attempt to kill Azuregos, why is it mandatory that you be able to interfere with every boss kill attempt?

Did you just ask me why we interfere with horde trying to kill a world boss we want? :biggrin:

 

[BerniSunders]

Alliance should not be able to interfere with Alliance killing Azuregos. Alliance should be able to interfere with Horde killing Azuregos. Your actions made this impossible

Alliance cooperating with Horde is the freaking plot of WoW movie, not to mention I have never seen once incidence of a retail server banning players for cross faction asssistance on a World Boss. If GM's come and say its against the rules I will be the first person to stop. But as suggested earlier, easiest solution would be for Alliance just to work together instead of one group of guilds thinking they own the rights to all world bosses.

 

[Tripwyr]

Did you just ask me why we interfere with horde trying to kill a world boss we want? :biggrin:

No. I asked why it is mandatory that you be able to.

We will continue to work with anybody who is willing to cooperate in order to secure our own boss kills. If our own faction is not willing to cooperate, I see no reason not to speak to other guilds who will. Like Peasemold said earlier, you were more than happy to cooperate with Horde when it benefited you.

 

[Asmodeus]

By wiping the horde raid we successfully blocked their kill, as they block ours and as horde and alliance SHOULD block each other. When an organized Alliance group actively decides to then continue killing that horde tagged mob with the intent of killing it FOR THE HORDE (no pun intended), therein lies the problem. The reset of that boss rightfully belonged to the alliance, but it was intentionally left tagged. How can any other raids/members of that faction compete with that? (other than trying to find members of the opposite faction to help them as well).

It's within the powers of the gms to see this kind of conduct and deem it punishable. If it happens as an accident (aoe kills it) or something along those lines then great, it happened. But when it was a pre-meditated effort (which it has been admitted that it was), that's when it's time for the gms to step in with warnings and punishments. By doing nothing the gms are condoning this kind of behavior which is quite frankly game breaking (when it comes to world bosses).

- - - Updated - - -

We will continue to work with anybody who is willing to cooperate in order to secure our own boss kills. If our own faction is not willing to cooperate, I see no reason not to speak to other guilds who will. Like Peasemold said earlier, you were more than happy to cooperate with Horde when it benefited you.

Cooperation is fine as long as it does not change the mechanic of the fight. When Onslaught and CORAL agreed to leave each other alone and go back and forth with attempts, it was our two parties involved and had another alliance or horde raid showed up, our deal would have essentially been broken. We did not run in and pick up a tagged Kazzak after Onslaught wiped and killed it for them. Focus on the issues here Tripwyr, stop going off topic.

 

[Hagson]

Alliance cooperating with Horde is the freaking plot of WoW movie, not to mention I have never seen once incidence of a retail server banning players for cross faction asssistance on a World Boss. If GM's come and say its against the rules I will be the first person to stop. But as suggested earlier, easiest solution would be for Alliance just to work together instead of one group of guilds thinking they own the rights to all world bosses.

You're not seeing the problem. If horde tags and then alliance kills there is nothing anyone can do to prevent it. We can't kill you, you're alliance! Horde won't kill you, it's their tag! If taking the time to level summonlocks is "unfair" then there are no words for this.

As for the second part of your post, we dont think we own any right to world bosses, we think they should go to whoever tries the hardest within a defined ruleset. If you had anything to bring to the table then we might have cooperated with you. But as it stood we were more than twice as many as you, and it was just a matter of time before we would get the kill.

Us working together with you is not a likely outcome after your actions however.

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

Alliance cooperating with Horde is the freaking plot of WoW movie, not to mention I have never seen once incidence of a retail server banning players for cross faction asssistance on a World Boss. If GM's come and say its against the rules I will be the first person to stop. But as suggested earlier, easiest solution would be for Alliance just to work together instead of one group of guilds thinking they own the rights to all world bosses.

You acting the way you are is precisely why we don't want to work with you. We have some standards.

 

[BerniSunders]

You acting the way you are is precisely why we don't want to work with you. We have some standards.

Cya at azuergos next week

 

[Tripwyr]

You're not seeing the problem. If horde tags and then alliance kills there is nothing anyone can do to prevent it. We can't kill you, you're alliance! Horde won't kill you, it's their tag! If taking the time to level summonlocks is "unfair" then there are no words for this.

The entire second Horde group (Friends + Arcanite Circle + PuGs) could have easily interfered, it was not their tag. The only issue here is that you are unable to interfere with our boss kill, and are upset that we've found a way to kill the boss when you don't wish to cooperate.

You're right you did have more players than us, although I disagree that you could have out-waited us, as evidenced by Kazzak when we out-waited you for the kill.

 

[Asmodeus]

If horde tags and then alliance kills there is nothing anyone can do to prevent it. We can't kill you, you're alliance! Horde won't kill you, it's their tag!

Davros, this is what must be prevented in the future.

- - - Updated - - -

The entire second Horde group (Friends + Arcanite Circle + PuGs) could have easily interfered, it was not their tag.

Our entire 50 something man raid was standing on top of Azuregos, we lost maybe 3 people when we wiped Onslaught's attempt. A scattered, disorganized pug group would not have ran into 70 alliance players and Azuregos. They likely did not realize what Risen was doing and simply saw tons of red colored names all grouped up.

 

[BerniSunders]

Davros, this is what must be prevented in the future.

- - - Updated - - -



Our entire 50 something man raid was standing on top of Azuregos, we lost maybe 3 people when we wiped Onslaught's attempt. A scattered, disorganized pug group would not have ran into 70 alliance players and Azuregos. They likely did not realize what Risen was doing and simply saw tons of red colored names all grouped up.

What you are asking for is for GM's to Ban players for assisting/damaging horde tag mobs. This would be the first server to my knowledge to do so if that's the route they went. Hell players interract with the other faction to kill elites all the time while leveling, including Mor'ladim and other named quest mobs. Seems stupid to me if they would ban players for simply doing damage to a mob that isnt tagged to them. And how would they even police what you're suggesting? Where does the madness stop?

I can think of a much easier alternative though, it involves simply whispering the other 40 man raid in the zone and asking if they'd roll for first tag on boss.

 

[Tripwyr]

I can think of a much easier alternative though, it involves simply whispering the other 40 man raid in the zone and asking if they'd roll for first tag on boss.

Yep, I've never experienced a guild so self-involved that they will not cooperate with others guilds to the mutual benefit of both. They chose to waste a raid night just so that they wouldn't have to cooperate with us, then ended up losing the boss kill.

I would happily roll for the first tag with the understanding that the guild who loses the rule will support the other guild by killing horde, as has been done with every guild I was ever in on retail. From then on it would be fairly trivial to trade off boss kills.

 

[Hagson]

mutual benefit of both

We had 50 people. We didn't need your help.