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Information PvP Timeline and Decay Cap changes

Brochette

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Because it's not how it used to work. It looks like a nerf, even if it's formally Blizzlike.

In 2005, raiding required quite some time commitment and so did PvP, so it was more okay that PvE gear > PvP gear. Now, PvP commitment >> PvE commitment, and people are asking for PvP gear to not be shit.
No offense but what you say makes no sense to me. PvP commitment always was bigger than PvE especially in retail because we had no premade to afk vs pug while the druid is carrying the flag.

K1/K2 had upgraded pvp set from the start, the pvp "community" was nonexistent or concerned like 40 people, Pve guild made their premade to gear their warriors and left once done.

Anyway They said on discord they heard the complain and will adjust upgraded R7-R10 release.

Time to make a full rage post on how 5g respec cost killed K1 and will kill K3.
 

Larsen

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The amount of hyperbole in this thread is incredible. No, the lvl58 PvP set is not worse than dungeon gear. It's marginally worse than T1. There's a select few specs like holy paladin that can't really use their level 58 set, but that's a very small price to pay for a much more balanced overall game. The alternative would be that the blue PvP set is more or less BiS for most specs until T2.

The 58 set is still worth using, and the caster classes still get their 2-piece 23sp bonus which remains BiS even with the level 58 version. You may have to drop one or two pieces of the set, but so what. Usually it's the chest, and basically all specs have access to a very good pre-raid chest anyway (Archmage, Void, Gladiator's, Exalted/Truefaith, Cadaverous). The set just isn't objectively superior to T1, which is a good thing.

It's extremely bad for the game when PvP gear is way better than PvE gear, for reasons too obvious to need explanation. People are just being hysterical and can't cope with the notion that spending a month or two mindlessly grinding BGs no longer puts them ahead of everyone else for the first six months of the server. The pre-upgrade epic set is considerably better than T1 as well, and comparable to T2.

The level 60 blue set is completely broken when available at launch and undermines the game's itemization to such a degree that it fucks up loot distribution in guilds because many classes can ignore most of their T1 and go all in on select high-value pieces. You'll see entire raids where almost all the loot goes to waste as core members have no reason to bid on T1 that's worse than their blue PvP gear.
 
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Eywin

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You telling me that if I push for r14 I can't buy my mageblade?

Please reconsider your release timeline or at least allow PvP gear be purchased according to highest rank achieved.
 

Wolfheart

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The claim that the updated Rank 10 set is that much better than pre-bis dungeon items + craftables is being greatly exaggerated.
Consider the warrior for instance.

Here are the numbers:
- Warrior 6/6 rank 10 (http://classicdb.ch/?itemset=545):

98 str (196 ap)
9 agi
5.45% crit (+0.45% from agi included)
1% hit
+40 ap
(196+40 = 236 ap in total)

- Warrior pre-bis dungeon items and craftables: 2/2 Devilsaur, Truestrike Shoulders, Savage Gladiator Chest (yes modern stats, see Chero's post on gating), Bloodmail Boots, Lionheart Helm. Look them up on classicdb if you want, I'm not going to clutter the post with 5 links.

40 str (80 ap)
23 agi
7.15% crit (+1.15% from agi included)
7% hit
+98 ap
(80+98 = 178 ap in total)

Do you mean to tell me that a difference of 58 AP in R10's favor is enough to offset 6% hit and 1.7% crit in a dual wield based dps spec? One that gets no native +% hit from talents no less?
Even incorporating the 2 piece R10 into the crafted/dungeon collection is a hard thing to sell, one might argue replacing Bloodmail and Lionheart (since it won't be easy to come by early on), but even then the difference is not so great it's game breaking.

Is getting R10 really that much easier (in terms of both time and effort) than putting together the PVE pre-bis set, that it destabilizes the entire game according to you?

I personally see no point in alienating the PvP folks (especially discouraging the more casual players who typically rank up to 10) because of this hyperbole. This is without even contrasting the fact that the 58 pvp sets are poor in general, and and entirely useless in certain cases, with T1 and T2 starting with fully updated stats.

PS: let me know if there's anything wrong with those numbers.
 

Wolfheart

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As far as I recall, the Lionheart plans are in the database from launch, it's only a matter of them actually dropping from Onyxia or certain world bosses. But anyways, still nothing gamebreaking with easily farmed items like Mask of the Unforgiven out there.
 

Brochette

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You missing the point, it's not the set the problem, it's the 2p bonus. The set overall is average. The 2p in any combination is BiS till AQ40 open for most dps class.

If you are not Full T2, R8-10 chest and shoulder (+20agi 2p bonus) is even Bis up to naxx for Hunters.
Same for rogue, maybe warriors isnt that much concerned but it can spare you a lot of farm time and gold.

So having a back up way to get good pieces for pve to counter bad luck drop is not in the Vanilla spirit. There was no token up to AQ, there is no reason to give 2 BiS pve piece by doing pvp. It will make pvp cancer again, trust me i was there in 2015.
 
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Pengalo

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i can confirm that 2p r10 gear is BIS for horde warriors until AQ. you will probably only replace it once you get shoulders from fankriss.
 

nimeralos

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You missing the point, it's not the set the problem, it's the 2p bonus. The set overall is average. The 2p in any combination is BiS till AQ40 open for most dps class.

If you are not Full T2, R8-10 chest and shoulder (+20agi 2p bonus) is even Bis up to naxx for Hunters.
Same for rogue, maybe warriors isnt that much concerned but it can spare you a lot of farm time and gold.

So having a back up way to get good pieces for pve to counter bad luck drop is not in the Vanilla spirit. There was no token up to AQ, there is no reason to give 2 BiS pve piece by doing pvp. It will make pvp cancer again, trust me i was there in 2015.
In my opinion, two BiS PvE pieces after investing hundreds of hours into ranking is quite a fair reward. But yes, the decision makes more sense now. It's not "Vanilla spirit" indeed, and it may make PvP more cancerous (i.e. more premades made of PvE-tryhards). The latter point would be partially countered by Deserter for dropping the queue now though.

Anyway, R14 decision is still definitely worth reconsidering. Why discourage certain classes from the R14 grind?
 

Wolfheart

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Really? This is what all of this is about? 2 slots remaining occupied until AQ?
For fuck's sake you guys...

Lionheart Helm is a level 56 craftable that you can get for ~300 gold that is BiS FOREVER. YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THIS.

2/2 Devilsaurs is a level 55 set you can get for a similar amount depending on market, that is BiS for MOST OF THE GAME for pretty much EVERY MELEE CLASS (even ferals) and might at the very least be pre-bis for hunters too (I haven't run the numbers on them to be fair).

Edgemasters Handguards hello?
How early in the game do you usually replace HoJ, or Don Julio's band? Briarwood reed? The blue neck from the Fordring chain?
 
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Brochette

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Except that after 6-7 weeks of pvp (at a moderate rate) you are R8 and can get 4p BiS for MC whitout even doing any preraid instance.
So no it's not only about 2p.
Still dont get why we talk about upgraded pvp set available from start, it's obviously a stupid idea unless you want to kill your pre-raid farm period before MC. Why Bother in 4 weeks of ST15+ playing with you afkmade you will be R8 anyway, just for MC release.
 

Wolfheart

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Brochette, if you used said 6-7 weeks at a moderate-to-slow rate on dungeons and farming, you'll have had every pre-bis dungeon item and craftable, and have been raiding MC for 3 weeks. Due to the item gating system, simple dungeon items will be very powerful compared to the level of content (think Ban'thok Sash, Savage Gladiator etc.)

In order to compete in PvP battlegrounds you need to work on PvP pre-bis gear too - you cannot expect to go in there with quest greens and stand a chance against someone who worked his ass off for full blues and an arcanite reaper. Not to mention the time and gold invested in acquiring a 100% mount asap. You will neither be taken into premades nor will you be doing well queuing on your own, in order to rank up in a timely manner.

I'm not going to look up any more numbers for your claims by the way - having checked the warrior, rogue, and hunter rare PVP sets against pre-bis and T1s, the difference was not nearly as gross as you sought to portray. Especially when you take into account the time and effort needed to reach the required ranks. So don't expect me to buy into that 4 piece BiS stuff without presenting your own numbers.

Thanks for the update Bazzil, looking forward to the announcement!
 
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Brochette

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Number are easy, if you dont know this, you dont know how vanilla honor system works.

It's basic math, I said Standing 15 but assuming we will have 2k/per faction in the honor system, even ST40 is enought to assure you 10k RP/week on a populated server.
1st week 10k + (-2k + 10k) = 18k you are R5 week2, week3 you are around 25k (18k-3.6k + 10k = 24.5k) and boom week 4 you are 30k rp and rank 8 with 4 Best in slot piece.

There is no time commitment, i managed to do this in the irae premade afk playing the middle 4h a day for 4 weeks during summer 2015. Everyone was dodging us, i never played a single full game it's was boring as fuck, we tried to snipe the horde premades but they never tag until they were sure we were inside already.

Anyone can achieve this in 7 weeks just by pvp 1-2h a day, in raiding pve you can do only 1 MC a week and you need to gear 40 people and only 26 items (half are useless) will drop.

Not having BiS pve piece as a reward in pvp at start will make the pvp community healthier, people will pvp because they want to, not to grab their BiS pve piece in a dodgemade.
 

Brochette

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The team has been following the conversations here, and we have decided to make some changes to the timeline with regards to pvp. The info will be included in an announcement coming in the next few days.
Some admin said this 15 days ago on discord, can't you just announce it like now or tomorrow? i am pretty sure you already took a decision.
(it's a selfish request but i wont bother to block my week-end for the xp rushing madness if you decide to release upgraded blue pvp set at start or before bwl)
I just hope you will make it available 1 month after bwl release which would be the best choice imo.
 

Pengalo

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Really? This is what all of this is about? 2 slots remaining occupied until AQ?
For fuck's sake you guys...

Lionheart Helm is a level 56 craftable that you can get for ~300 gold that is BiS FOREVER. YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THIS.

2/2 Devilsaurs is a level 55 set you can get for a similar amount depending on market, that is BiS for MOST OF THE GAME for pretty much EVERY MELEE CLASS (even ferals) and might at the very least be pre-bis for hunters too (I haven't run the numbers on them to be fair).

Edgemasters Handguards hello?
How early in the game do you usually replace HoJ, or Don Julio's band? Briarwood reed? The blue neck from the Fordring chain?
ever heard of minmaxing? if its bis people will go and get it - no matter what.

devilsaur bis most of the game? thats new to me. edgemasters are very underwhelming btw
 

Wolfheart

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ever heard of minmaxing? if its bis people will go and get it - no matter what.

devilsaur bis most of the game? thats new to me. edgemasters are very underwhelming btw
You're not making any sense by quoting what I wrote and defining min maxing.

- Nobody is saying people don't or shouldn't do it.
- You are saying that it's not okay to get 2 pre-AQ BiS pieces (which is debatable) for the (supposedly) moderate effort of PvP.
- I am saying that there are certain pieces you can get much more easily (you don't even need to be level 60), that are BiS for at least as long or BiS forever, which invalidates the argument that the 2 piece PvP "BiS" is too easy.

Go ahead and show me what you can get for a Warrior that is better than 2/2 Devilsaur until AQ. Inb4 you link Titanic Leggings.
Show me the same for a feral druid.
This is the last time I do your numbers for you, but here you go. Rogue T2 vs Devilsaur:

Bloodfang Pants
Total AP from Str and Agi: 48
Total crit including agility: 2.275%
Bloodfang Gloves
Total AP from Str and Agi: 39
Total crit including agility: 0.69%

Combined numbers: 87 AP, 2.96% Crit, 0% Hit

VS

Devilsaur Leggings
Total AP: 46
Total Crit: 1%
Total Hit: 1% (set bonus)
Devilsaur Gauntlets
Total AP: 28
Total Crit: 1%
Total Hit: 1% (set bonus)

Combined numbers: 74 AP, 2% Crit, 2% Hit

Tradeoff: 13 AP and 0.96% Crit for 2% hit. For a combat rogue who gets the largest chunk of his dps from white melee swings, extra hit is more valuable than the tradeoff, especially when you take into account that at BWL gear levels + consumables Rogues will be crit capped.

In the same vein, for fury warriors also getting the greatest portion of their dps from white swings, yes indeed, Edgemaster's providing almost complete glancing penalty reduction for orcs and humans using appropriate weapons, and slightly more than 3% hit + a sizeable reduction in glancing penalty for other races / not using weapons buffed by racials, is very underwhelming.
 
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Wolfheart

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If we were rolling with all items beginning in their nerfed pre-patched states, I'd be with you all the way that the PvP sets need to be scaled down to the 58 versions. That was the level of item power they were originally (and fairly) made to go along with.

But, with superior 1.12 quality dungeon items, updated T1s and T2s, and what no one has managed to mention yet, updated Raid Weapons (yes, Vis'kag and Deathbringer for instance didn't hit nearly as hard before being scaled up), it is only fair that at least the rare pvp sets also begin in the equivalent buffed states.

Your complaint is that PvP may be cancerous (measures are being taken to stamp that, the deserter buff on leaving queue should considerably discourage premades dodging each other). The alternative is that PvP may be nigh on non-existent.
 

Brochette

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No offense but Viskag change is 1.4
T1/T2 is 1.5
New R8-R10 is 1.11 more than 1 year later)

Considering we start between 1.4 and 1.5 i fail to see your point about fairness.
And again we had them in K1 and K2, pvp was still shit and non-existent, so it's safe to say it's not the decisive factor.
 
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